Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

As someone who has played an evil character for over three years now I can with some degree of certainty say good toons do not have more epic gear than evil toons and it's most likely about even. My toon has some pretty good epic gear and him being evil has in no way kept him from attaining it. Now, where I do agree with the OP is about events. Goodly characters generally have more events but that is also because there are more goodly type characters on our lovely server. It's not always that way though, I have seen the pendulum swing both ways and it's just a matter of time before we baddies get to sink our teeth into some delicious villainy.

I continue to consider an evil PC (ne'er the Underdark because I think drow should never be PC but that's another thread) because in my experience (cue anecdotal evidence) I've not found many PCs that are evil and sly. I think there's an attempt at that but it's an attempt. Overt evil is one thing. The problem is, it's hunted and killed. That's what good PCs do to overt evil.

I do think that evil NPCs should have equal rewards for achievements than neutral or good. That's not necessarily up to the DMs. That could be PC related. For example, kill a good PC and get X amount of gold or prestige when bragging in certain circles. Consider, though, that the Thayan Enclave sits in BG and has for quite a while so that's a thing.

Evil PCs have the abandon that good PCs do not. They can lie and bluff. They can side with Shar or the Red Wizards for gold or power. They have no qualms when it comes to what means fit the end. That's part of what makes them evil. So, as someone said, 25% vs. 75% isn't the same if that 75% has promised not to hit below the belt while the 25% aims for it. Yet when evil bites the ear off the opposing team in a fair fight, expect judges to intervene.

Dagesh wrote:I've not found many PCs that are evil and sly. I think there's an attempt at that but it's an attempt.

You could realistically expect HALF of characters you interact with to be evil and hiding that fact to you by not being obvious.

Anyone rememebr Eliphas Valkarian?

Frankly, I just don't understand this kind of hesitation. "I am considering..." ... Just roll it already.

Anyone rememebr Eliphas Valkarian?

This.

NegInfinity wrote:

Dagesh wrote:Frankly, I just don't understand this kind of hesitation. "I am considering..." ... Just roll it already.

You don't know why I am considering so please don't assume you know why.

A few too many experiences of Chaotic Stupid by a certain minority of open evil tends to spoil attitudes of the majority against those who play shrewd, discreet and 'clever' evil. Note, however, I am not trying to create a false dichotomy between these two somewhat discordant ends of the evil spectrum. Both have their place on the server; I just sometimes wish the latter were far more frequent than the former (and they probably are), but the incessant sabre-rattling of the former tends to rail against the whole.

Please please please do not just roll up another PvP-goading powerbuild and expect other players to take you seriously, especially OOC, when one assails the FAI campfire with gods-knows-what for the umpteenth time that week. Surely it's possible to think of something far more devious than merely wandering up and down the Trade Way with provocative evil summon in tow as you force PvP down other's throats? And I wholeheartedly commend those who do not walk this path.

Dagesh wrote: You don't know why

Of course I don't know. However your post sounded as if you were delaying character because of character's alignment.

Also, it isn't the first time I hear this kind of comment.

Either way...

Have you guys tried dealing with balance via IC means? Like from within the game? If you feel that evil population is lacking, you can contribute to it. Heck, I don't know if we even have active assassin guild now (because Red Sorceress is dead).

Also, I honestly do not think there's any gear issue related to alignment. Even though some towns have rules against masks and certain races, you can still ask someone else to get stuff from there - IC. Major looting zones are open to all alignments as well.

Steve wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote:You mean events designed for good only characters? Which events are those?

Well, eventing against the General of Larloch's Crypt, in order to save Baldur's Gate, that could very well be considered designed for good-only characters. Sure, the Thayans found a way to benefit from the attack on Baldur's Gate, but that is such a thin and particular avenue that relied on opportune and intelligent thinking on part of the Players of that Guild.

I for one was not aware of any invitations or avenues for evil-minded PCs to work against the 1351 Server Campaign, unless the Player themselves made that effort. The Virtuous Soil was not exactly...inclusive. And with mixed results, in the end!

Goodness persists; Evil resists. It would be fun to reverse that for a Year, on BGTSCC...and see what happens.

But M3nt, there is a small problem with events open to all Alignments: it usually makes no sense! PCs are simply in those events cause they want DM attention, and XP, and Custom Stuff. And have you played an Evil-minded Toon in an event with a bunch of good-minded toons? :

Good Guy: "Let's save the princess!"
Evil Guy:" Let's save the princess...then ransom her to the King for lots of coin!"
Good Guy slays Evil Guy in the name of their God. End of RP.

Yes, it is a crass example, but it can get pretty damn weird and character-breaking to shove one's Toon into a place that makes any kinda sense they'd be in that "open event."

What is missing, in short, is some form of Evil NPC-led quest/missions/campaigns, in my humble opinion. Something I'm trying to advocate for currently!!

((Note, these are my own views, opinions and experiences and in no way reflect the views, opinions, experiences or any rulings by the DM team as a whole))

I know anything I say will be a bit anecdotal, but I can only speak for myself. All of my events are open and for those that have been centered on doing good deeds, I have also thought of plot lines where evil characters can take a role in them on the opposing end. The problem though is a fear that this will result in PvP in the event. We don't want players killing each other in events, especially when the event is open to having all levels participate. The best way to get around that is to have two separate events held at separate times.. I am currently think tanking on an event I want to hold that will involve both a good campaign and evil campaign, but again I am faced with the same issues and trying to find ways to keep the two groups separate from each other. Also, my events tend to run more towards the mid levels at highest low 20s. I do try to hold bigger events that are open to level 30s, but since those are open to all levels the rewards tend to be mundane..

Also.. I have done work specifically for evil players in evil guilds because I personally enjoy that aspect of the server and want to see it thrive.. I have never done anything specifically for a good guild. Everything that I have done that has involved a good guild has also been an open event.

Again.. this is purely anecdotal. My experience as an ADM as limited as that experience has been...

Dagesh wrote:I continue to consider an evil PC (ne'er the Underdark because I think drow should never be PC but that's another thread) because in my experience (cue anecdotal evidence) I've not found many PCs that are evil and sly. I think there's an attempt at that but it's an attempt. Overt evil is one thing. The problem is, it's hunted and killed. That's what good PCs do to overt evil.

I can say in my time as a player and as a DM I have had interactions with players who everyone said were evil, and I know OOCly that they likely are, but IC my character doesn't see anything evil about the people being spoken of. They are often times friendly, charming, and seem sincere... As a DM I can examine and go yup, they're evil.. But IC I don't have that insight. That said.. I think people would be surprised to know how much evil they were surrounded by.. Perhaps in the level 30 clicks it seems more one sided but pre30..I see a decent amount of evil, a lot of neutral and very little good. Thing is though, neutral characters are more likely to do good than evil for the most part.

Edit: I'll take a bit back from what I said here.. maybe I just remember evil characters more than I do good characters.. The nature of memory O.o but after looking around and looking at some statistics I would say it is about.. Of every 20 players, on average you will end up with 10 neutral, 6 good and 4 evil. Still a lot of neutral, a decent showing of good but not exactly void of evil with maybe 20% of the server..

DM Theophanies wrote:I thought I'd post how the team views the various settlements around the server:

NPC Settlements
Baldur's Gate: LN, and tolerant. If it leans anywhere, its towards good (it has 1/4 good Dukes, and server lore has given it a greater goodly presence given the faiths of the city) but it is very much Lawful Neutral. The tolerance has been watered down on the server a bit as well given the banned faiths, again a product of server lore (and the actions of said faiths). The Dukes are played as being savvy, and willing to make money from anyone, but without committing outright evil acts themselves to do so, or endanger the city.

Roaringshore: CE. Anything goes in Roaringshore, but certain groups are certainly not welcome (Holy orders, known goodly factions, etc, are going to get a rough time). The Pirates will not be fond of being bullied on their home turf, but would be keen to have trade from various evil factions. It is an evil settlement, basically, ruled by evil NPCs.

Soubar: CN. We go for a wild west feel with this place. No laws, the NPCs (such as they are) really want to make money. They do not care much for the ethics of how its done although server history has made them leery of rocking the boat too much with outsiders, and of being subjugated. If anything it might lean slightly towards evil in the same way BG leans sightly towards good. But the idea is anyone and everyone can RP here, and anyone and everyone should have their guard up.

Corm Orp: TN, and its got that lovely halfling temple on the rise, lovely place. Whats that? Darkhold's nearby and there is a treaty of defensive cooperation?

Beregost: LN terms of the Amnians but the settlement has perhaps a slight lean towards good (still neutral) given the Lathanderite temple and PC guild. That said, Amnian law prevails, so there is freedom of faith and provided the laws are not broken, no groups are banned.


Nashkel: LN, very strictly. This is due to the Amnian NPCs and the large influence of the House of the Guardian. Again Amnian law prevails.

Friendly Arm Inn: TN. An enforced truce, given Bentley's ideal of a neutral meeting spot to resolve disputes. Obey Bentley's no trouble rule and it does not matter who you are.

Uruk Lurra: CE. ORCS ONLY. Okay half orcs. Be careful if you are anyone else.

Summary: Of 7 settlements, 6 are neutral, 2 evil. 5 are open to anyone, 1 is hard to visit for good aligned, 1 is pretty much orcs only, and one (the largest) is hard to visit for certain evil factions and faiths. Two of the neutrals could be said to be more favourable to good than evil, but only mildly in both cases.


PC Guild/NPC Settlement Fusion
Darkhold: LE. The garrison is an NPC garrison that is LE. Clearly the zhentarim PCs have much sway here however.

Doron Amar: CG/CN. This is a settlement largely PC led so policy is set by PCs. We envisage it as broadly elven in outlook in so far as we are asked to RP the NPCs. That would place it broadly CG, but CN leaning given its origins.

Darasha: CG/CN. The NPC council (which defers to the PCs on foreign policy) is composed of a TN, a CN, and NG NPC. Which about sums up the village.

Kraak Helzak: LG? Again, its PC led. I suspect its a LN leaning and isolationist LG. Or a LG leaning and isolationist LN. Ask them! But when asked to play the King, thats how I play it

Summary: 3 on the border of good and neutral; one evil but very lawful, so perhaps not suitable for all evil doers.


"Off Map" Settlements and Factions
The Amnian Government: NE. This government intervenes fairly regularly in the north, particularly if there is a threat (This is a shift fron canon lore due to Amn Gate war). When you are dealing with the local garrison in Beregost, its LN. When the cowled wizards teleport in with a bunch of Legionaries and special orders from the Council of Six, its pretty much gloves off time. While Amn, the country, has a vast swathe of people in it of varying alignments, we do consider Amn overall to be a "light" NE, and there plenty of fairly rotten people within the faction who are open to all sorts of scheming. We have, in a shift from canon, made them more willing to work with evil factions rather than treat them as competitors.

The Lords Alliance: LG, although slanted towards LN. To some cities its a defensive alliance against expansion by Amn and the Zhentarim; to others the opposition is much more fervent.

Elturel: LG, but a helmite LG, as its ruled by a Helmite Paladin. Its likely the only "Good" government that PCs will interact with.

Summary: 1 evil, 2 good, although they are somewhat one in the same.


I am posting the above so people see how the team view these settlements. The bias on the server is probably quite heavily towards lawful, rather than good per se! But they are sometimes one in the same.

I wanted to go through Steve's examples as they are good questions and the answers might help show whats possible and whats not

Steve wrote: – Can a PC work to be honored by the High Captains of Roaringshore for exceptional piracy?

I this has happened twice in the past year and a half, and indeed half way through the process a third time. All in mid 2014. Alas Roaringshore after some activity fell quiet again. I did have a group of PCs honoured for exceptional piracy. And indeed, there are PCs in existence today who have the ear of one or more of the High Captains

But I can tell you the number of requests we have had (until very recently) to interact with the High Captains since late 2014. Zero.

I welcome more!

Steve wrote:– Can a PC wrestle with his moral abnormalities yet maintain his dominance and strength of purpose so that others are lead by his/her example?

This sounds like a player to player thing, in which case I'd say its possible.

Steve wrote:– Can a band of brigands rob and steal from a Baldarian caravan, and bring that booty back to the NPC Leader and receive rewards, titles, slaves, accolades within the evil power structure?

I do believe this has happened a couple of times in the past year. Its not common though, and the receipt of rewards, titles, slaves etc within the evil power structure does not happen. There is not a singular evil power structure, however.

Steve wrote:– Can a Zhent gain accolades and power without being a member of the Zhentarim Player Guild?

No. The Zhentarim PC guilds IC duty is to manage agents on this region of theSword Coast, thus interaction goes through the guild.

Steve wrote:Conversely, are there any consistent, active Evil NPC factions that Players can RP within, in the similar vein that we RP "within" the Laws of Baldur's Gate and the whims of the Four Dukes?

Currently, the public ones would be:
- Amn (the central government)
- The High Captains
- The Black Orcs of Uruk Lurra

There have been more clandestine ones in the past.

The truth is, and its unfortunate, but the majority of requests we get for interaction that can be labelled "evil" (Not ALL, but a large number) are often by single PCs, are requesting a sweeping effect, and are often "PVP" focused.

I just want to add a footnote on evil PC RP in Amn to DM Theophanies' excellent post, as Amn really continues to be a vastly underutilized RP space for evil PCs (and really PCs of any alignment in general since the Amn-Gate War).

As a DM that has DMed a lot in the Amnian area of the map going back to 1350, I can say that there continues to be huge potential for evil PCs to coordinate RP in Amn IC that would be tolerated and even protected (and perhaps even supported) by Amnian law. For a few reasons though, as our server is more north-centric in terms of general player interest and geography, there are currently very few active Amn-focused player characters to begin with (of any alignment) and even fewer active Amn-focused evil player characters. Could this change? Of course, but it is up to players to roll characters or otherwise RP-orient existing characters to do so and send the DM team player requests to respond to!

How many evil-oriented RP requests has the DM team received over the past 12 months relating to working with the Amnian government in Athkatla or major members of Amnian society on an "evil" project? One. Compare that to the probably fifty we received in the same time frame related to evil RP in northern polities and societies. Keep in mind that the Amnian military in our server lore and in canon Forgotten Realms lore is roughly as large as the entire Lords' Alliance member armed forces combined (there is a reason that Amn could face the entire Lords' Alliance alone in the Amn-Gate War), so it is not as if evil PCs would be trying to work with a weak strategic partner here if they approached the Amnian government with a coordinated reasonable project that meshed with server and Forgotten Realms canon lore.

Some may have noticed that there has been some recent Zhentarim movement IC regarding Corm Orp and Darkhold as DM Theophanies mentioned above. How did this come about? We received a player request from the Zhentarim guild spelling out sober IC goals for a plot and the DM team responded and now there is a plot ongoing with that. The point, send the DM team player requests evil PC players! We love them! The RP is what matters, not alignment!

Player request guidelines:

http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?p=613160#p613160

As far as coordinating via player initiative, the Foreign Exchange Committee in Baldur's Gate as a conduit for Baldurian and Lords' Alliance oriented RP was entirely a player born initiative that was then blessed by the Grand Dukes after the DM team received a player request asking the Grand Dukes to work with this large initiative of Baldurian oriented PCs. There is no reason evil alignment PCs could not do something similar outside of Baldur's Gate among evil leaning polities and send in a player request to the DM team after it is organized to ask for RP help. If you want help brainstorming, please just PM the DM team. Maybe what would unite such a group would be quite different than the Foreign Exchange Committee. Perhaps it would be religious liberty or emancipation of monstrous races that the Lords' Alliance polities usually ban? Perhaps a tariff union or other trade pact? Perhaps expanding the legalization of slavery? Perhaps improving relations collectively with the Lords' Alliance members? Perhaps hatred of a surface race that is well-liked in Lords' Alliance polities such as elves? Perhaps the unity is more ideologically based as in preferring more authoritarian and oppressive leadership and valuing order above other societal values? Just a few thoughts that come to mind!

I told myself I wasn't going to post in this thread. But whatever. There are so many things to touch upon in this thread, excuse me if I don't put pretty flowers around every word.


The current state of RP on this server is kinda bad. There is no sense of danger (something Kagger tried to change a bit recently). Yet even if there was it wouldn't matter seeing as most of "team good" is gathered in a few cliques who are shut-ins, roleplaying hours upon hours closed behind doors within their safe areas, while evil is, as always, lost without any direction or any regular roleplay. Regardless of what you play on BG currently, the only solution to getting some regular RP going is making your own clique or getting into an existing one. As a good aligned character you can still actually find some RP, and you can still -do- things, but if you happen to play an evil character and you dislike the idea of cliques? Enjoy spending 80% of your time on this server looking for RP instead of actually roleplaying.

The problem is not "lack of epic DM rewards" for evil aligned characters, nor is it that team good "wipes the floor with you"... The problem is the same as always, evil has no regular roleplay "scene", which is maintained and nurtured. It takes very little to get things going but people who play evil aligned characters always seem to have issues with simple things. 2 years ago I suggested we get some organized shady/evil casual roleplay going on the surface. Be it by simply agreeing to be at the same tavern or a similar place, or something more complicated. 90% of the people in the thread asked "WELL WHAT IS THE REASON FOR MY CHARACTER TO BE IN A TAVERN!?". So I came up with the idea of "activities" in several places (RS, beregost, darkhold etc.). Of course, it all ended with people doing regular RS tournaments and not actually gathering to roleplay in between them, missing the entire god damn point of it all.

Moving on to the "shrewd, sly, secret" evil characters. I have no problem with such characters, from time to time I even play characters like that. Such characters are also needed for this server to be an interesting place. But let us make something very clear: Such characters bring very little to nothing to the evil side of roleplay on this server. They exist mostly to serve the good aligned spectrum by creating "PLOT TWISTS" and similar things for them. If evil roleplay is happening somewhere, most of them will be sure to avoid it out of fear of metagaming. (a special thank you and respect to those who don't do that).


The reason there seems a lack of DM rewards for evil aligned characters is simply because evil aligned characters are lethargic and not actually doing things or trying to do things. Good aligned characters are no different, mind you, it's simply that things go in their favor because of the way good works. They don't HAVE to get off their asses, one of the guilds which their guild is loosely associated with will call upon them and poof, they are involved. Without lifting a finger. Evil does not work like that. On top of that, evil aligned population doesn't have long lasting characters in general. If there's one criticism I have of the current DM team in regards to supporting evil roleplay, it's that you guys sit back with open arms expecting player requests from evil aligned characters now that you have the system setup. What you are forgetting is that evil roleplay on this server has been stomped out hard over the years. It has been nearly demolished. Evil aligned guilds are in disarray (or non existing, let's try and count the number of properly active evil guilds on the surface...), and evil aligned characters in general don't last for more than a few months. Sitting back and waiting for players to come to you doesn't work at this point, as you yourselves have admitted on numerous occasions. If you truly wish to help the evil side of roleplay, you need to go out of your way to give it a helping hand, even with little things like helping people get some roleplay going. I have offered a suggestion to the DM team back at the start of 2015. in one of those feedback threads: balance being proactive and reactive. I would like to further push that suggestion, and even slightly change it in regards to evil aligned PC's and guilds on the server: If you have specific interesting ideas and plots in mind for evil aligned spectrum of characters, then please, be more proactive. Generalized events "open to everyone" are most certainly not the solution. It ruins the fun for everyone. I don't think anyone is saying "OMG STOP THROWING ALL THESE DAMSELS IN DISTRESS AT PALADINS", people just want something specific for the other side as well.

Steve wrote: – Can a Zhent gain accolades and power without being a member of the Zhentarim Player Guild?

Explain this part to me please. Are you asking if a PC from Zhentil Keep can achieve things on this server? I don't see why not, Zhentil Keep is just a location on Faerun. If you are asking if such a character can achieve it as easily as a member of the Zhentarim can, then the clear and very obvious and logical answer is no. Steve, this isn't 2014., you aren't the head DM anymore. The Zhentarim are not a group of characters reduced to being Zhentarim and not being Zhentarim at the same time, like some people in your DM team tried to make them out to be. Simply being a member of the Zhentarim means you hold plenty of power in your hands, because that earns you a seat at the table in Darkhold. Just because some PC's on the server refuse to recognize that power, either because of their OOC agendas or something else entirely, does not mean that such power is not there. You can keep calling the Zhentarim on the server a "cell" or a "Zhentarim player guild" as much as you want, it does not change the fact that Zhentarim PC's are members of a global faction and it does not change the amount of power they hold in their hands. That power is, naturally, regulated by the DM team, but it is most certainly there. The issue the guild faces is that either people aren't interested in roleplaying a Zhentarim character, or those who are come in and expect everything to be handed to them on a platter instead of thinking of ways to exploit that power and then push those agendas forward. But, that is the regular problem with most guilds, people expecting things handed to them instead of realizing it's supposed to be a group effort.


Regarding the things DM Dialectic and DM Theophanies pointed out here, particularly the part about Amn:

Why would anyone try to do anything evil in the Amn part of the server? Think long and hard over the last 2 years about things that occured there, specifically in Beregost. Beregost has a Temple of Lathander, which was empowered last year by having an entire campaign revolving around its goals, and Nashkel is the seat of the Everwatch Knights. Both of those locations are certainly not fertile grounds for evil roleplay, regardless of which government runs both of those places. You are sitting back and wondering how this happened probably. Well, it's very easy, DM's sat back and allowed "natural" course of things to happen, and when that is allowed to occur it will almost always turn into happyville. The one time in my three years here when it was supposed to go in the opposite direction, the DM in charge forcefully turned it into an "everyone loses" situation instead I do not think that the rest of the settlements are even that important, not without active and continuous DM presence to draw people there. But why would you even want to do that when Baldur's Gate is the center of the server and it needs more attention as well? To be clear, Beregost shouldn't even be a part of Amn, and Nashkel isn't your typical Amnian town. As far as I'm (and probably a lot of other players) concerned, there is no proper Amn presence on the server.


And finally religious roleplay, a very important aspect. Tell me again, how many temples dedicated to evil gods are open to everyone? One? Oh no wait, it's two. Both of those deities being forces of nature sort of. So how is evil religious roleplay even supposed to thrive in such an environment?

Explain this part to me please. Are you asking if a PC from Zhentil Keep can achieve things on this server? I don't see why not, Zhentil Keep is just a location on Faerun. If you are asking if such a character can achieve it as easily as a member of the Zhentarim can, then the clear and very obvious and logical answer is no. Steve, this isn't 2014., you aren't the head DM anymore. The Zhentarim are not a group of characters reduced to being Zhentarim and not being Zhentarim at the same time, like some people in your DM team tried to make them out to be. Simply being a member of the Zhentarim means you hold plenty of power in your hands, because that earns you a seat at the table in Darkhold. Just because some PC's on the server refuse to recognize that power, either because of their OOC agendas or something else entirely, does not mean that such power is not there. You can keep calling the Zhentarim on the server a "cell" or a "Zhentarim player guild" as much as you want, it does not change the fact that Zhentarim PC's are members of a global faction and it does not change the amount of power they hold in their hands. That power is, naturally, regulated by the DM team, but it is most certainly there.

To further explain, it would be nice for all Players to be able to interact with the Zhentarim Global Faction (NPCs), without having to do it through the Pkayers of BGTSCC Zhentarim Guild. Not that I don't want to interact with you—as you know, I've been trying but getting denied by you all for having ideas/plans that don't suit the "Zhentarim Way"—but the Zhentarim on BGTSCC is a difficult issue because it composes both PCs and NPCs, is not currently organized as Canon Lore dictates, and every time the DMs do try to control NPCs of the Zhentarim, the Players get upset that they were not "included" in that decision.

I must say, I am still surprised by how sore you seem about my being Head DM and that I somehow made some concentrated effort to "ruin" or "hinder" the Zhentarim and/or Darkhold RP. That couldn't be FARTHER from the truth, but there appears to be some sense of "ownership" of Zhentarim RP on your and others part that I personally think is what truly gets in the way of open, enjoyable RP.

You talk about cliques and such, hampering RP, but do not ignore that the Zhentarim Player Guild had one/has one as well, also utilizing Skype and OOC relationships, that did not, does not help any collaborative story building.

Look, thids...I apologize to you PUBLICLY for whatever you think I did that made your Zhent RP difficult or challenged. But since NO ONE came to me with a valid complaint or even explained to me when as a DM or post-DM what was the problem—I only continue to receive sly negative attacks to date—then feel free to keep using me as a punching bag for past complaints.

Or, we can try to build up something for the Now, for the Future. I find that much more appealing, and actually could help erase misconceptions of the past.

Of course, only if you and others are willing!

And I am surprised how you can, even after I have pointed out all the flaws to you, be sore about rejection. Especially when rejection is the only thing that makes sense IC.


Your character in the Zhentarim was not a victim of "OOC skype clique", he was the victim of his extremely low activity and little actual effort put into the guild. No matter what you believe. You can keep your apologies, because that is no apology whatsoever. And I'm not looking for one either. Despite what you may think, I am able to keep a clear mind and stay objective when looking at your RP ideas. I simply do not like them. Zhentarim being a clique? Are you serious? Wolfshear and I spend majority of our playtime out and about, roleplaying with anyone and everyone we stumble upon.


If you think your characters ideas are rejected because of some OOC grudge or something, by all means, feel free to contact Fzoul. I'm certain he eagerly awaits fanmail from random people in the Western Heartlands.

Oh and to point something out, The Zhentarim is very open to any RP approaches from the players. In fact we look forward to them, and to the RP. Your attempts at trying to skew this image as if we are some sort of elitists who reject ideas and opportunities based on OOC crap are in vain. Plenty of people can confirm that it's simply not true. You can continue to try and be a subtle bully about all this OOCly, or you can accept the simple fact that people dislike your idea because it is not a good one.

I'm going to offer a gentle reminder for this thread to stay on topic and any personal grievances be taken to PMs. Its fine to discuss the nature of evil RP and what challenges it might face, but please do so without focusing the discussion on individual player experiences or criticising other players directly.

I am not singling anyone out here, I just want to offer a reminder in case the thread slides into something thats not constructive.

damn thids i think i love you

and yea evil temples on the surface are doomed, anyone remember what happened to the temples of bhaal and bane? and people wonder why evil cant do a thing

people have to be interested in things to help with them but when you paint a location and there is nothing really protecting it and it gets ran over horribly by goodies people start to lose interest in being a baddie

the problem the surface has is how the hell do you have a place baddies can meet and rp (and actually want to go there) without goodies ruining it, granted i didnt leave the surface because of all this i left because of foresight (tho i still run things on the surface too its just a bit harder ), a lot of baddies were leaving the server including ones in the UD (some of which were guildies) and my main was about to become a lich, so i had help in making her replacement from mar3 who set her up in the school of necromancy so she could start her raise to power

and luckily by doing that i was able to stay in my guild and help the school of necromancy at the same time, but the UD is no different and requires people to be interested in wanting to do it