Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

DM Echo wrote:

Currently though all arguments made for either side are arguments from ignorance.

I am saying neither side has proof, thus we are ignorant, both sides, of the actual intent by WotC here. Argument from ignorance is an informal fallacy which says that because you can't prove me wrong, I must be right. It can be used to try to shift the burden of proof onto the other side of an argument.

This smacks of intellectual dishonesty, our side has presented the proof that the monster manual states when a creature has exceptions in it's ability to speak any language it knows. You refusal to accept it as evidence doesn't make it untrue. The only assumption being made here is that the lack of that exception in the entry for elementals is somehow an oversight.

Only one position here lacks evidence, only one side is arguing from ignorance. And when asked to present your logic for the DM ruling you admit it is a ruling made in ignorance, this is what doesn't sit well with me.

You have freely admitted that you made a ruling from ignorance, and smiply refuse to accept evidence we present instead of admitting that you were, honestly, just wrong. The sourcebooks do NOT leave this particular thing up to DM interpretation, it is actually pretty cut and dry.

If you would like to change your position to "cause we said so" then man up and be honest about it, at least, because that is basically what you are saying. You are in fact the DM team, and "cause we said so" does lie within the realms of things you can do, however ill advised.

So, in summation, your stance is freely admitted to be "we don't know so we made something up" and ours is actually backed up by the rulebooks, although perhaps not in a way you agree with, But, since you have admitted that the DM position is one, and I quote, "arguing from ignorance" I think it is more than fair to ask the DM team to give a good, justifiable reason that OUR arguments are somehow without merit, since you have already undermined your own.

So in the interest of bringing this debate back into line and the assumption Bodyknock was still writing their post when i posted mine.

Do we believe that all transformations should speak all known languages fluently?

Do we believe that languages spoken with grace like elven could be spoken clearly and fluently by creatures with unsuited vocal chords?

Just so its clear this is a personal question that im musing about and in no way an official DM question to the community.

i wouldn't say by vocal cords, but, surely there's a compromise when magic is involved. magical acoustic telepathy. make one's thoughts heard magically. i dunno, just thinking out loud here. oh wait...

I agree with Wafflehouse. This is an interesting subject, and it would be a shame to see it locked as a result of aggressive back and forth.

Right now I'm seeing a minority really quite passionately opposed to the ruling, with a majority either accepting it or supporting it.

That being said, if there is a larger group of players who feel this ruling needs to be readdressed, then they should certainly speak up. That's the reason the ruling was published informally to begin with. (When the government does this, they actually refer to it as a "public comment" period.)

The rules aren't official until they're codified in the DM rulings thread, so there's certainly time for the DMs to alter the ruling if the player base finds it too restrictive to their roleplay or their immersion. As I understand it, the ruling was made because the DMs were directly asked to make a ruling, and the determining factors in their decision was that it would enhance the quality of roleplay and immersion in the world -- and make more fun the interactions of the players within it.

They also felt that the lore and common sense supported their decision, though I don't see why it matters in a situation like this what the lore says. If the lore was crystal clear, and the decision was cut and dry, then there likely wouldn't have been people asking for a ruling in the first place.

So instead of trying to outargue each other, maybe let's just ask everyone a simple question:

Do you support this ruling (regarding, primarily, elementals -- as everyone seems to largely agree with the rest of the ruling?), or do you feel that elementals should be able to converse in common languages?

Telepathy is a whole different thing definately more suited for the mindflayer polymorph.

Though would earth elementals be more suited for dwarven or orc as oppose to elven?

DM Wafflehouse wrote:So in the interest of bringing this debate back into line and the assumption Bodyknock was still writing their post when i posted mine.

Do we believe that all transformations should speak all known languages fluently?

Do we believe that languages spoken with grace like elven could be spoken clearly and fluently by creatures with unsuited vocal chords?

Just so its clear this is a personal question that im musing about and in no way an official DM question to the community.

I think its acceptable for any transformation that can speak per the monster manual can speak any language it actually knows, although the degree of fluency would vary from barely fluent to native speaker, we should not remove their ability to communicate entirely in a language they know unless there is a specific prohibition from that form being able to speak, as is the case with animal forms.

Edit: In addition, I have known several players that choose to not speak, or speak very poorly, in common, which was great RP. The way, in my opinion, to foster this sort of "thick accent hard to understand speech" from elementals is by supporting and encouraging it, not by making up a new rule that straight up forces it on people whether they like it or not.

Fine.. One last thing to say on the subject... Just wanting to make sure no one was getting the wrong impression.

The native language of most inhabitants of the Elemental
plane of Fire is Ignan, a sharp, hissing and clicking
language. Those natives who deal with other planes may
speak additional languages. Infernal and the Common
tongue of the Material Plane are often spoken in such
cases.

The native language of the Elemental Plane of Air is
Auran, a breathy, leisurely tongue that sounds like a long,
slow exhalation. When other languages are needed, the
Common language of the Material Plane is often used, and
Celestial is sometimes used as well.

The native tongue of the Elemental Plane of Earth is
Terran, a deep rumbling tongue that vibrates through the
listener like a tremor. Those natives who deal with visitors
may speak additional languages, though most feel no need
to do so.

Natives of the Elemental Plane of Water speak Aquan, a
flowing, subtle language filled with double meanings and
hidden puns. Those dealing with other planes speak other
languages to facilitate their dealings: Common, Infernal,
Abyssal, and Celestial are frequent choices.

Air Elemental Int: Large - 6, Huge - 6, Greater - 8, Elder - 10
Earth Elemental Int: Large - 6, Huge - 6, Greater - 8, Elder - 10
Fire Elemental Int: Large - 6, Huge - 6, Greater - 6, Elder - 6
Water Elemental Int: Large - 6, Huge - 6, Greater - 8, Elder - 10

More Intelligent than their smaller cousins, worgs speak their own language. Some can also speak common and goblin.

Worg Int: 6

Magma Mephit come from the elemental plane of fire.... speak common and Ignan.

Magma Mephit Int: 6

Fire Mephits come from the elemental plane of fire.... speak common and Ignan.

Fire Mephit Int: 6

Ice Mephits come from the elemental plane of air.... speak common and Auran

Ice Mephit Int: 6

Ooze Mephits come from the elemental plane of water...... speak common and aquan.

Ooze Mephit Int: 6

I could go on but.. The point is there are a lot of creatures with Ints the same or lower than elementals' yet there is one difference.. They can speak common, elementals can't. It can't be because of their int, it can't be because of their home plane since D&D clearly states that common is a fairly common language in their home planes, so what is the reason they don't speak common? Is it proof? No. No one has proof either way. Still have yet to see any evidence showing that elementals should be able to speak common. All I have seen so far is people stating that the books don't say they can't, so I say they can, prove me wrong..

This smacks of intellectual dishonesty, our side has presented the proof that the monster manual states when a creature has exceptions in it's ability to speak any language it knows. You refusal to accept it as evidence doesn't make it untrue. The only assumption being made here is that the lack of that exception in the entry for elementals is somehow an oversight.

Your entire argument is still you can't prove me wrong therefore I am right.. A lack of evidence for something also isn't evidence that it is true. By your own logic, insects should be able to speak with high enough int scores because nothing in the monster's manual says they can't.

Edit: Also.. The source books clearly state that these languages sound like:

a sharp, hissing and clicking language

a breathy, leisurely tongue that sounds like a long, slow exhalation

a deep rumbling tongue that vibrates through the listener like a tremor

a flowing, subtle language filled with double meanings and hidden puns

(granted aquan doesn't tell us much about what it sounds like but I imagine a bubbling brook, a stream, a waterfall, based on how the other languages are described)

Maecius wrote:
Right now I'm seeing a minority really quite passionately opposed to the ruling, with a majority either accepting it or supporting it.

That being said, if there is a larger group of players who feel this ruling needs to be readdressed, then they should certainly speak up. That's the reason the ruling was published informally to begin with. (When the government does this, they actually refer to it as a "public comment" period.)

I would suggest, if there is some momentum... call it a "proposal" that we create a separate thread and have the community "vote" on it. Not in the yes/no mechanic on the forum.. too easy, we are far more sophisticated than that here. No, we have people voice the yes or no, and any argument fore or against such action.

I think it could prove ... valuable. Whichever way the DM crew wishes to proceed, even if the ruling takes only a partial bit away from the "vote".

Before it goes to a vote its important to thoroughly discuss what we want to vote for exactly.

I agree.

Since there is a want for change. The ones who want it modified, come up with bullet points for said changes, and it will allow others to comment on those points and we can have a grand ole time of community interaction.

DM Echo wrote:Your entire argument is still you can't prove me wrong therefore I am right.. A lack of evidence for something also isn't evidence that it is true. By your own logic, insects should be able to speak with high enough int scores because nothing in the monster's manual says they can't.

Not exactly, my argument has the precedent that the monster manual and other souls include specific cases where a creature cannot speak a language it knows. You are making the assumption that the lack of this for elementals is an over sight, I am making no assumptions when I say that the lacks of that restriction means it isn't there.

So in truth, my argument isn't "you can't prove me wrong therefore I am right," it is actually "I am right to begin with, and you have to justify a change in the rules that makes me wrong." If this ruling had not happened, I could make no case at all and my position would have been correct, so since you are the one calling for change, you re the one that has to provide proof to support it, the status quo doesn't have to be proven, it just is.

That is probably why most of my argument has been cutting holes in yours, because I have nothing to prove.

(And to be clear Echo, I don't mean you in particular when I say all this, I just mean your position. I am not trying to be personal or attack you here, but critical thinking is critical, and therefore often comes off that way. I am critical of the position, not of you or anyone that holds it.)

DM Wafflehouse wrote:Do we believe that languages spoken with grace like elven could be spoken clearly and fluently by creatures with unsuited vocal chords?

Just so its clear this is a personal question that im musing about and in no way an official DM question to the community.

Actually, of note. And please forgive me for committing the sin that I have been heavy handedly pointing out, but, as I recall, elves typically don't like when humans speak their language.

I can't cite it, sorry about that. But I do remember reading the elves dislike when other races use their language, because it's a language of more than just words, it's in a sense empathy and song. Some have trouble understanding it, where as gold elves that act in the typical haughty fashion of gold elves are oturight disgusted by others using the tel'quessir language, almost as if it was blasphemy, because of how much they butcher it. Something that humans have a lot of trouble grasping when they try to speak elven language themselves.

I don't see at all how it's 'lazy roleplay'. To me, if a creature can talk - it talks, that's simply all there is to it. We talk everyday to convey how we feel in a complex manner. If a creature can do that, why wouldn't it? I don't blame you for liking RP that's outside the box, like communicating with a druid that is incapable of speech. I never bothered with the charades thing, for me whenever Eva transformed into a dire wolf (I did this for fun on off hours of roleplay) she'd just stare at people in dungeons that were adventuring, casually trapesing by while they tried to make sense of the situation, stopping to sniff them, growl if they became hostile, or even lick their wounds whilst casting regeneration when I found the odd guy having trouble in a dungeon, and in need of healing or else they'd likely get fugue'd.

The point is that when you polymorph into a creature, you do so only physically. The language of the elemental planes isn't just empathy, it needs to be a complex language or else it would be categorized as empathy. So it stands to reason that these are complex languages that demand the person speaking them have the vocal capacity to do so. These are beasts of legend. Magical creatures. Nothing about them is reasonable, and it breaks my heart when people try to apply logic and science to the inconceivable.

If just one source that had outright stated, or even hinted, that a elemental had 'limited speech', I would've taken it very seriously. When I spoke up in the questions for DMs section of the forums, I was completely unsure because I don't own a bunch of these books, nor read them cover to cover. It was my hope that if the ruling was no, I could at least see why it had come to that.

There are -loads- of creatures that are magically gifted with the capacity to speak. I sincerely think that this is one of them. Unicorns can speak common, and sylvan for instance. Because they're magical. A intellect devourer understands undercommon, but explicitly can't talk. But, it has telepathy.

I don't see why a creature that makes no sense whatsoever is suddenly getting treated with science in the mix. They don't make any sense, they're fantastical beings. They don't have hearts, or brains, yet they feel and think. There are loads of examples with creatures that explicitly can't talk, and loads of creatures that can talk even though it makes very little, to no sense at all, that they can.

I also don't understand how they can only speak a language of whooshes, or crackling of fire, or rolling stones. To me, perhaps not to everyone, that's like an animal whining and whimpering. It's not a language. It's a series of noises that say 'I'm hurt!' or 'Dangerous', or 'Where are you?' Very, very simple communication. Nothing so complex as to be denoted as a language.

The native language of most inhabitants of the Elemental
plane of Fire is Ignan, a sharp, hissing and clicking
language. Those natives who deal with other planes may
speak additional languages. Infernal and the Common
tongue of the Material Plane are often spoken in such
cases.

The native language of the Elemental Plane of Air is
Auran, a breathy, leisurely tongue that sounds like a long,
slow exhalation. When other languages are needed, the
Common language of the Material Plane is often used, and
Celestial is sometimes used as well.

The native tongue of the Elemental Plane of Earth is
Terran, a deep rumbling tongue that vibrates through the
listener like a tremor. Those natives who deal with visitors
may speak additional languages, though most feel no need
to do so.

Natives of the Elemental Plane of Water speak Aquan, a
flowing, subtle language filled with double meanings and
hidden puns. Those dealing with other planes speak other
languages to facilitate their dealings: Common, Infernal,
Abyssal, and Celestial are frequent choices.

That's what I mean, though. These are languages. I don't see how one can convey things, like aquan for example, with double meanings while trying to... I dunno, gurgle their spit so as to sound like water. Or making rolling wave noises. It doesn't make any sense that such a complex language would be reduced to vocal chord limitations. It doesn't say anywhere that the elementals have a very limited command of the language (although, it is implied by the fact that they're dumb as dirt until they get bigger.) But once they're large and of 'average intelligence', that evaporates entirely.

It's a language. A language from another dimension. And these are beings that have absolutely no desire to do anything other than follow their bizarre desires that we can't really fathom. They're not born to the prime material plane ever, and as far as I know, typically loathe being here. Why would they ever learn common as a species just because they might end up summoned there? To their planes of existence, the language they know is their individual version of 'common'.





On a side note, because it's bothering me. I'm not going to bother dignifying haters, but I will personally and publicly apologize to you, Echo. What I typed, when I typed it, didn't feel like I was trying to personally attack you, but I can see how it can be taken as such. That was my fault, and I should've taken a breath and considered my writing before posting it. That was my bad, and I hope your feelings weren't harmed by my carelessness.

Maybe this is when we should talk about how challenging it is to consider Common, in regard to language abilities:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Common

For example:

In other realms, "Common" could be a different form altogether; these were not in fact dialects but different languages. An example was in the Underdark, as the residents there spoke what was known as Undercommon. Inhabitants of different planes also speak different forms of "Common".

Are Elemental Planes considered here?

The obvious advantage to Common was that practically every sentient creature could speak it. Even in remote areas of Faerûn like Murghôm, Samarach, and the Great Glacier, the inhabitants could speak at least enough of it to make themselves understood with a little creative pantomiming. Admittedly regional accents had a tendency to confuse the issue; natives of distant areas sometimes regarded each others' accents as strange or silly, but they could still understand each other.[3]

If nearly every sentient being can utilize Common—in one dialect/form or another—that implies that language, or communication, can happen, the the broadest sense. So unless a creature was a non-magical mute, possibly even without a mouth, there is a high likelihood that communication can happen, albeit with issues of nuance and concepts translating directly...or not.

And let us not forget that Common—as we use it as Players—the default mechanical language, is often employed for convenience in RP, even if Toons all have Elven or whatever known.

Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, magic seems to provide the possibility for anything, in the Forgotten Realms So should we just say: polymorphing and Elementals are magic based, thus, they can speak?

And I don't want to side track this, but hey...what about being able to hear a language? We keep talking about a Beings ability to literally speak with vocal chords, but do Elementals even have ears?!? Or is it a semi-telepathic perception that exists there?

From a personal standpoint, I would say that since FR has elemental plane languages, and Elementals come or reside in those Planes, and Planes are known to have a Common tongue, I would say that Elementals—whether real or a polymorphed form—have an ability to speak the language of the Element, and/or this type of "Common" tongue.

And since Common, in general, is used in order to more easily facilitate communication—and I read that is what Players want most from this situation....

I think we are overthinking the ears part on elementals. Like Golems, they are just magical, and can hear.

Syracuse wrote: A intellect devourer understands undercommon, but explicitly can't talk. But, it has telepathy.

This is the heart of the issue right here, intellect devourers explicitly cannot speak. Why is the absence of this explicit limitation in the elemental's entry taken as open to interpretation? Is it open to interpretation that an orc can fly because their entry doesn't say they cannot? Is it open to interpretation that a horse can climb nearly vertical objects simply because the entry doesn't say they cannot? (I mean, they can in Skyrim, so why not D&D?)