Paladin's Durations

[Steve]

Perhaps what might be needed are some Paladin specific PrC's that would enable the player to not feel so reliant on the spellbook (which shouldn't be a main feature of the Paladin class anyway but a bonus).

Yes, but at this very moment, you can multi-class Paladin 20 / X 10 and get something just as balanced, if not greater in power, than a Paladin 30. And, if one is concerned about dispelling, go Paladin 21 / Xxx 9. Paladin 21 / Cleric 3 / Hospitalar 6 for example, or Paladin 21 / Cleric 3 / Anointed Knight 6.

[Selande]

The question seems to be: "We need it to be stronger."
Why does the answer have to be: "Make it more gish." ?

[realayer]

The question seems to be: "We need it to be stronger."
Why does the answer have to be: "Make it more gish." ?

Well, if you look at the original post it is about making pally more "gish" by increasing the duration of buffs, then the discussion becomes how to make it stronger/better, so it just comes into full circle

But seriously, pally has to be gish to be playable in BG. Pally is not effective without buffs. The question is not making it more gish, it is gish as how it is depicted in BG.

[Akroma666]

I understand the argument not to touch the paladin.. Because balance.. But I pose a counter argument.
Name 1 active pure 30 paladin on the server..

[AC81]

The question seems to be: "We need it to be stronger."
Why does the answer have to be: "Make it more gish." ?

My point exactly.

[Maximvs]

Name 1 active pure 30 paladin on the server..

Name me 1 active pure single lvl 30 class on the server.

[Blackman D]

that are not druids because druids apparently needed a LOLsuperdragonshapebuff for being level 30?

probably none since kel is gone, he was a 30 rogue

[realayer]

Name 1 active pure 30 paladin on the server..

Name me 1 active pure single lvl 30 class on the server.

I think that's almost impossible because different people have different playstyle and not every class will suit one's playstyle. Multiclass almost seems certain unless there's one class exceptionally suits one favour or provides extraordinary incentive, like druid. Multiclassing is also supported by game mechanic as there's no serious penalty to it (beside racial favoured class and ECL punishment). Also, staying in one class also defeats the purpose of having PrC.

All in all multiclassing adds flavour to gameplay and should not be restricted without any good reasons.

[Steve]

The question seems to be: "We need it to be stronger."
Why does the answer have to be: "Make it more gish." ?

Because, unlimited spell casting—in the context that it really IS unlimited, only metered by Resting—is the only way to successfully Solo + PWN everything on the Server.

You cannot do it with non-magic melee. It is just plainly impossible.

[Steve]

Name 1 active pure 30 paladin on the server..

That doesn't matter. What matters is that there have been plenty of SUCCESSFUL Characters that were 30 Paladin, on this Server. The Players left for reason that have ZERO to do with their level 30 Paladin being weak.

[Akroma666]

Name 1 active pure 30 paladin on the server..

That doesn't matter. What matters is that there have been plenty of SUCCESSFUL Characters that were 30 Paladin, on this Server. The Players left for reason that have ZERO to do with their level 30 Paladin being weak.

Why Steve, are you admitting 30 paladin is weak?!

[Steve]

What I am admitting is that your argument is weak.

[realayer]

Let me summarize the arguments/points people have here as the discussion has become somewhat diluted

1. too short the pally spell duration and too few the spell slots - buff the duration and spell slots and to reinforce the current depiction of pally by going to a gish route

2. creating a new pally PrC to make it better as pure pally sucks - in terms of spelling progression and some goodies, still a gish route

3. overhauling of the pally class by "kits" - the current depiction of pally in NWN2 and BG is not faithful to pally concept, implementing the kits as Atlas suggests (actually what's a kit? I notice other class also has this feat, but not sure what it does. Can someone explain this?)

So the question is:
Does the class need a change? Here are some of my thought:

1. gish? some might consider the spellbook not pally but to me it's a pally's prayer book to her deity for power, so it is a matter for perspective. Praying to his deity for power - isn't it the most pally thing she would do?

2. concerning the duration, I think it is fine. But the spell slots is insufficient. As Atlas points out, another server gives pally 6 slots per level. I think it helps (might not be that many but an increase will certainly help). Rasael points out that a pally need to prioritize his spell. It is true. But as some of the buff are so essential that need to be put in the spellbook to make the pally effective, there is no room for those situational and burst spell in the spellbook, rendering these spell useless. The usefulness of the longer duration buffs outweigh the burst buff. If one would not consider putting them in the spellbook, then why giving them to pally?

3. Implementing pally kits. It sounds a nice idea. I won't mind going that route if it makes playing pally more interesting. Currently it seems all pallys are built for EDM, not many variations. "Kits" might bring more color to the dull pally class.

TLDR: I am content with how pally is in BG. But if it needs to buffed, the quickest way to do it is to give it more spell slots. That needs not to be too many, around 4-6 slots per level should be sufficient. At the sametime, I don't mind seeing an overhaul of the class just like Atlas suggests, implementing pally kits to make it less gish.

[Rhifox]

(actually what's a kit? I notice other class also has this feat, but not sure what it does. Can someone explain this?)

In 3.5 they're called Variant Classes, Alternate Class Features, or Substitution Levels. Kits are basically class options that let you swap out some class feature for a different one. BG doesn't presently have any kits available, but it did add in the framework for it to be added in the future.

Here's a list of 3.5 Variants/ACFs/SLs. And paladins in specific.

For people that dislike paladin spellcasting, here's one example from Complete Champion that gets rid of it:

Holy Warrior
By giving up your spellcasting ability, you gain access to bonus feats much as a fighter does. This choice does not, however, close you off from divine influence - in fact, several of these feats actually increase your divine power.
Level: 1st.
Replaces: To select this class feature, you must sacrifice your spellcasting ability.
Benefit: You no longer gain spells as a paladin, but you can now select a bonus feat at 4th, 8th, 11th, and 14th levels. You can select any feat from the following list for which you meet the prerequisites: any divine feat, Cleave, Extra Smiting, Extra Turning, Great Cleave, Improved Smiting, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Skill Focus (Ride), Spirited Charge, and Trample. This is an extraordinary ability.
Special: A paladin who selects this path can no longer use scrolls, wands, or other magic items that require access to a spell list, unless she has another spellcasting class that grants access to the appropriate spells.

Name 1 active pure 30 paladin on the server..

Name me 1 active pure single lvl 30 class on the server.

I'm a lvl 28 pure Spirit Shaman, if that counts? Though mostly just because it's hard to justify multiclassing when there aren't many full spell progression divine prcs to start with, let alone ones that fit a nature theme or also increase animal companion progression. Going full pure 30 in anything is so boring though. I keep looking at weird/bad builds just to add some kind of flavor.

Anyway, I don't really think how good a class is with pure 30 is a good measuring stick for any class. Almost any class will be better multiclassed than pure.

[Lambe]

Name 1 active pure 30 paladin on the server..

Name me 1 active pure single lvl 30 class on the server.

I play a pure 30 ranger. It's not so bad if played by its strengths. And I never intended to pawn everything in this server, like Steve mentioned. I do have to thank the staff for all the improvements they've given the class throughout the years, especially with its spellbook. Cheers.

Having said that and with both rangers and pallys being changed to full spellcaster levels, Extend Spell is a huge boon as already mentioned in this thread.