Suggestion: Avernus

[Hoihe]

On the other side of things ... if a shop like this existed on Main St , Baldurs Gate, that would be OOC too. The items in it are CRAZY good and belong in a shop in the planes!

Could be somewhere like Plane of Air with a Djinni as the salesman .

[Snarfy]

Then, since your particular motive for getting the items is an OOC one (keeping up with the meta)...

If you read Ariellas statement of:

This is not some rewards its an entire epic shop devoted to close the gap between mages and melee builds.

... you'll note that this is more of an opinion/observation than it is an expressed motive for visiting the shop.

Shop OOC. Grey orcs can go into cities to shop OOCly (or used to be able to. To my knowledge, they still need to). Quests are all OOC, too (unless you want to opt-in to make them IC). Throw up an AFK tag and go for it, generally speaking its in keeping with the server's philosophy of catering to everyone.

And, sorry but, this is an utterly asinine suggestion to offer to someone who has clearly expressed that they do not wish to purchase equipment from a devil NPC for RP reasons. Believe it or not, some players do derive enjoyment from exploring new areas, battling new enemies, and finding new items while staying in-character.

On the other side of things ... if a shop like this existed on Main St , Baldurs Gate, that would be OOC too. The items in it are CRAZY good and belong in a shop in the planes!

I don't think anyone is suggesting to plop this shop down into BG, or any other area, for that matter, that would force a player to visit it OOC'ly, much like the current implementation does. Changing the NPC to something of a more neutral race would be a huge step towards accommodating those from all walks of the alignment/race spectrum. Thankfully the devs are, by the sounds of it, taking that into consideration.

[mrm3ntalist]

Those are some... interesting suggestions.

~snip~... can you please come up with a way to give Players the freedom to access an Epic Shop through some alternative method that doesn't require mechanical power and/or the need to depend on other Players?

~snip~

So it still seems odd that there cannot be some more neutral and possible manner in which this Epic Shop can be accessed.

+1.

A little less excited to learn that it was pretty much only accessible to those who already have powerful items/builds/friends.

Right? It does seem rather counter-intuitive to see this shop, which arguably boasts the best NPC-purchasable items on the server, placed in an area where the most likely characters to reach it are powerbuilds ones that have been optimized for content.

Which brings us to the OP's suggestions, and the "RP" of it all...

Have you guys even tried to get there? If you want hints I can give you some or challenge yourselves just a bit to do it. It can be done with minimum fighting.

[Snarfy]

Have you guys even tried to get there? If you want hints I can give you some or challenge yourselves just a bit to do it. It can be done with minimum fighting.

My character actually found himself lurking in Dragonspear, but then he got stuck at...

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... the levers in the basement...

... then I got excited when found a...

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... false wall... which led to nowhere...

...and then I, as a player, got tired of ...

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... my level 30 getting spotted by every CR 18-20'ish monster in the place(thanks to the Durlags-esque detection bonus/stealth penalties... whichever it is)...

... And so, I left.

But, to answer your question, no thanks to hints, I'd rather figure it out IC'ly.

[kleomenes]

I can definitely see why such powerful gear is behind epic creatures and hard to get to. Its end game content, and I'm one of those who loves to see an area challenging even our godlike level 30's . I speak as someone whose main can, inadvertently, solo most non White Dragon content on the server, even if its a bit more touch and go post dispel bug fix. And whose other char (a pure melee build) struggles to go to the ogre fortress or the fields of the dead at level 30 because his will save is so low. So I'm both in favour of an area that dominates the most powerful of builds while at the same time knowing how many builds struggle with our existing content without support. It would be a bit lame to see this store moved to the FAI or some such.

I've got sympathy with the arguments about alignment though, and accessibility to all players, as while I don't think people should HAVE to be too strict about this sort of thing, the fact that many people want to be (I usually am myself) shouldn't be given such a heavy disincentive, if the goal of this store is greater parity in item standards (a noble goal). With that in mind its notable the other epic shop (Tommy Shackles) is basically stolen goods, so its hard for many chars to to buy many of the items there, too, if they are savvy to it.

Speaking from ignorance here as to the set up of Avernus and the new store, but people have presumably gone through a portal to go in to Avernus. Perhaps there's a portal out to the Plane of Air or wherever with a less alignment slanted guy selling weapons from a less unholy source (it could even be the tiefling/half fiend with his conversation mentioning he's an exile from Hell or something). It could even be a pretty and relaxing small RP map which can be unusual in some way! As its not bound to "the Sword Coast."

Journeying THROUGH the Hells to buy gear seems a lot less problematic RP for good or just devil hating characters than actually "doing deals with Devils". Sure, its ICly super dangerous and insane, but fighting Devils on their home plane means permakilling them rather than just banishing them as you do on the prime, surely an incentive to righteous crusaders!

[Aspect of Sorrow]

I'm a little confused by the request of reaching the shop designed for mechanical power by not exerting mechanical power.

[Steve]

the shop designed for mechanical power

But wait: is the Shop designed to give more mechanical power to end-of-game PCs, or is it to give a open avenue to things that were once only possible to achieve through DM reward and/or Luck of the RIG?

What more mechanical power is necessary at Level 30? At a certain point, the only thing Item Stats does for a Character is allow the Player to "do better" in mechanically-based PvP.

Level 30s "doing better" in DM Events because now they have Amazing Epic Gear from this Shop, would be a shallow argument: a DM can always PAWN a PC, no matter what gear the PC has.

Imho, more mechanical power across the board in availability does not make for a better Role-play Server. Unless one thinks that RPing more powerful Characters because they now possess Devil-infused Artifacts, fundamentally changes the RP landscape.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

The cost is fairly prohibitive to lower level players, defaulting the shop to being fairly moot if it existed elsewhere.

[Moltrazahn]

Maybe we need the new epic gear for some unannounced thing to come! O.O
Maybe we need -that- gear to venture into "DIS"! - And then the gear from "DIS" to venture down into "Minauros", and from there to "Phlegethos"! And from there to "Stygia"! And to "Malbolge"!, And "Maladomini"!, then "Cania"! And fianlly faceplant ourselves with +6 items in the bowls of "Nessus" To make Asmodeus our b¤3c%!

[Charraj]

I'm a little confused by the request of reaching the shop designed for mechanical power by not exerting mechanical power.

But as I understand it, it's not staff's policy to encourage mechanical power building.

One of the stated reasons for this shop was to provide more equal access to "top tier" items for all players. This is so that players don't have to rely on loot-grinding or DM events to get such items.

But the way this shop is placed, it still kind of encourages a loot-grind situation, in that only the mechanically powerful can access it.

I understand why Avernus must be mechanically difficult. It is the Hells, it canNOT be a cakewalk, or else the RP of it is ruined. But the shop's purpose of providing "top-tier" items for everyone was to address an entirely separate OOC issue. IMHO, it wasn't necessary to put the two things together.

[Steve]

The cost is fairly prohibitive to lower level players, defaulting the shop to being fairly moot if it existed elsewhere.

So what makes it the "reason," then? It being prohibitive because needing Epic Levels to get there, or prohibitive because of the Gold Cost for such gear?

Many years ago, in my 2nd year of BGTSCC, I found 2 Mith Full Plates within a month. Soon after, I had 1.5 million gold coin through sales.

Yet, my highest level Toon was 15 or 16.

And without Level Restrictions on Items any longer, does this Epic Shop and Epic things need to exist such that you have to wait until Level 30 to get them? Or, that you have to wait until you start RPing a Character who's moral code allows for such Items to be possessed?

There are so many loose threads here, all one has to do is tug one or two and the Current Implementation starts to unravel.

Having the Avernus area for Epics to RP/Adventure in, is great. Having the Epic Shop IG is great. Do the 2 actually need to be tied to each other? Can there not be a more Neutral setup for the Epic Shop? And one that doesn't require mechanical prowess in order to achieve these Items?

Don't get me wrong: I am not advocating to "dumb down" the experience and the act of getting said Items from an Epic NPC merchant. Instead, I am asking those in power to look to make the experience and the act more open and less restrictive to both power building Toons, and more importantly, RP.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Please don't mistake my position in the subject by my questions. My highest is a level 28, with 15k in GP, and 30k value on the inventory and arrived in Avernus twice out of curiosity. I personally feel that the RIG / boss interaction is a good formula, though the epic eschelon of items may be better off in lieu of a fairly intricate crafting system that involves scaled RL time. More power given toward character derived outputs that not only have a few good boons in the item itself but also comes with a weakness to still allow DM specific rewards to stand on it's own tier. Such as a player crafted +4 shield may have a frost weakness, but the reward for DM campaigns have chances that are less likely to incur a weakness, favoring the RP theme of the server without fully cancelling out those who enjoy the standard hack and slash.

But as I understand it, it's not staff's policy to encourage mechanical power building.

Something I wholeheartedly agree with.

Do the 2 actually need to be tied to each other?

I do not feel it needs to be intertwined.

[Kiran]

I like the dungeon, no, love the dungeon. The whole atmosphere and difficulty is great, and I am a FVS, so if I am getting my ass rammed one should know its a bloody difficult dungeons The idea that my char is doing a deal with the devil, to get better gear? my char would do this, so.. not really a overall problem for me...

I can see how others who wish to stick fully immersive in rp who are good alligned and might not wish to make bargains with horned things. So why not give you cold to sweet evil chars like me to make the bargain for you? I can only sell my soul so many times though, so first come first served.

But are people not overthinking this whole thing a bit too.. much? Or maybe is just me...

[kkrazlite]

See everyone seems to be talking about the new end game content and how its challenging and hard to get to. . . Yet from a personal stand point (( And ive seen people do this IG although i won't point you few out on the forums )) I noticed people would. . .

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Simply go ethereal or even sneak pass all the mobs and content!

Just to get to the shop.

I have watched people do this and even me being one of those "Power Builds" find it kind of ridiculous that people have the option to skip pass all the content if they had one of two abilities. People are just going to the new area for the store this is of course no problem to me personally but "Skipping content" to reach that one objective you need to get to. . . Why not just find a group IC and ask for assistance instead of pulling these cheap tricks. People don't even go to the side area's at all unless they were searching for the exit. Making the fact that the DM worked so hard on the area all for nothing but that one doorway they decided to put at the end.

[mrm3ntalist]

Thats how difficult it is...

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Simply go ethereal or even sneak pass all the mobs and content!

Of course we can always put the seller on Nexus ( with items free of charge of cource ) right next to the 100% rcr bot, which is right next to the bot that gives free xp once per week, instead of doing the quests...