Amplify and Clairaudience

[Theodore01]

without comment .....

[AlexBnt]

without comment .....

Yes well, I did not roll my Move Silently skill. Which is terrible. Anyone that levels listen can beat it.

Also, I was fully buffed which was giving me 12 of those hide points.

[chad878262]

Ok, I get what you're saying. It is not so much an issue that the spells are useless, but the fact that not having them be able to stack makes specifically the bards spellbook have less depth and synergy (to some extent). I tend to agree with that statement, especially since I have an epic bard and I can honestly say that, while a STR or EDM Bard's spellbook has strong spells, there is very little wiggle room in regards to what to pick... Basically every bard is going to take almost identical spell picks every level with perhaps 1-4 variances per character for RP reasons. Granted you do have on this server a few players who've bravely built caster bards, true storm singer bards and the like that focus on Charisma, songs and casting, but that is not where the true power is because of the limited spell book, limited cast per day and lack of level 7/8/9 spells for DC purposes.

So we have an already limited spell book where an option, while still there has been effectively taken away as a viable option to select. It is a fair argument, and all I can really say is there is no really 'perfect' solution when it comes to things like this. There were several different threads in QC around these spells with various options for how to address them and this solution seemed to be the least offensive to the majority. Especially when the outrage of the original changes was being heavily and loudly voiced. In the grand scheme of things I think this is a whole lot better than what we had and while the impact from your perspective absolutely makes sense I don't know that leaving them as stacking and reducing them to +5/+5 would have been a more universally acceptable solution...

without comment .....

You do know that in effect with a hide skill over 100 you have gone back down to the single digits, yes? Stealth is terribly bugged and you really should not go over ~80 Also, there wasn't enough gear added to get to that level unless you have some old / dm award stealth gear to go along with it. Otherwise, I suppose you could cast Camouflage, Pass without trace, Greater Heroism, use bard inspire competence, cat's grace, spiderskin to get ~ +33 and then you only need +17 from items to hit the +50 cap... but again, once you go over a certain number you can be spotted by a drunk first level 8 wisdom fighter inflicted with blindness

[AlexBnt]

You do know that in effect with a hide skill over 100 you have gone back down to the single digits, yes? Stealth is terribly bugged and you really should not go over ~80 Also, there wasn't enough gear added to get to that level unless you have some old / dm award stealth gear to go along with it. Otherwise, I suppose you could cast Camouflage, Pass without trace, Greater Heroism, use bard inspire competence, cat's grace, spiderskin to get ~ +33 and then you only need +17 from items to hit the +50 cap... but again, once you go over a certain number you can be spotted by a drunk first level 8 wisdom fighter inflicted with blindness

Except that is not at all how the stealth mechanics works.

[arakes99]

Almost all math in code rolls over at +127 or -127 because of memory allocation.

There is no reason to think that a skill would roll over at 100 in this game or any other. That's just not computers work. People use ten base math, computers use 2 base.

[Blackman D]

debating hide and spot is a bit pointless, they werent changed at all

the change affects listen and move slightly and i dare anyone to say that +4 is greater than +30

the change brings the gap down to +4 vs +10 which is a hell of a lot more reasonable

[arakes99]

It's not +4 vs +30 tho.

Its +1 or +2 times every gear slot.

[chad878262]

It's not +4 vs +30 tho.

Its +1 or +2 times every gear slot.

??? +4 Listen / +4 Spot gear has been available for a long time on this server... Now there is some +4 hide/ms items available whereas it used to be there was one or two items that were +3 and everything else was +2 for stealth.

[Flasmix]

You do know that in effect with a hide skill over 100 you have gone back down to the single digits, yes? Stealth is terribly bugged and you really should not go over ~80 Also, there wasn't enough gear added to get to that level unless you have some old / dm award stealth gear to go along with it. Otherwise, I suppose you could cast Camouflage, Pass without trace, Greater Heroism, use bard inspire competence, cat's grace, spiderskin to get ~ +33 and then you only need +17 from items to hit the +50 cap... but again, once you go over a certain number you can be spotted by a drunk first level 8 wisdom fighter inflicted with blindness

Except that no single class gets all those spells. Pass without trace can't be put on a scroll or wand as it's a new spell. To get the full bonus from spider skin you need to have the spell tied to your class which bards don't get. Mass camouflage is the way to go, but it's not lasting long from wand casting to spy. Mrmentalist knows a lot more about how the numbers work out, but detectors have it way easier.

[chad878262]

but detectors have it way easier.

Agreed!

Was merely saying that no matter how you slice it spot/listen can always be high enough to detect and we have done tests where over certain thresholds stealth bugs out. I am not a coder/programmer/hacker to know the 127 / - 127 Akroma mentions, but Snarfy has posted before how a low level PC spotted his max level/maxed out gear sneak. In addition, without flagging hostile the stealth PC doesn't get a d20 roll while the spotter in active search mode does. I was merely stating in regards to the post about the 107 hide roll that going to high can cause unforeseen issues, I honestly have no idea what the 'hard limit' is, but I have been told it's somewhere in the low-mid 80's... that might very well be incorrect, but high 70's - low 80's is usually good enough in pve and I have never been able to get higher without buffing, which I generally don't do to avoid certain mobs from seeing through my stealth.

[cosmic ray]

Lol guys, I didn't intend to start an argument on sneaking vs. detecting.

My point was just to express my worry about the RCR becoming 50% again come the 25th when there are still things not working as described. I thought the spells were bugged at first.

[Blackman D]

It's not +4 vs +30 tho.

Its +1 or +2 times every gear slot.

the gear is irrelevant and no one is talking about gear its about the spells

but on the point of gear, detectors didnt or barely needed it when two spells gave you +30 listen; add 33 ranks and you are at 63 listen ignoring wisdom, lets go ahead and assume its a bard and add another +6 from owls and greater heroism and now you are at 69 still ignoring gear - now add the d20 roll and +5 bonus for not moving and you can detect a MS up to 84... still ignoring gear, which means you will find just about everyone because MS is not that easy to raise

cutting amp/C&C down just means they actually have to invest in gear as well like stealths always had to

Lol guys, I didn't intend to start an argument on sneaking vs. detecting.

nature of the beast, stealth for some reason is an insanely touchy subject, blind people dont like getting spied on but dont want to invest in detection so they complain about it

[Snarfy]

... but Snarfy has posted before how a low level PC spotted his max level/maxed out gear sneak.

This has happened to me on multiple occasions, I can concur. A few times it was due to a notable bug(that I shall not mention here), other times it was completely out of nowhere. Although the last instance was ages ago(half a year or more) and at that time my character was not quite at the 80 hide/80 MS mark. I do know of other players who had higher stealth than mine who have also been detected by low level characters, but these instances are extremely rare AFAIK.

Regarding the OP though... as a player of both a sneak and a bard, I can safely say I find the current Bard/Mage version of C&C more than a little lacking, and greatly confusing as to how it works(for my feeble understanding of DC's at least).

However, in the spirit of fairness(and at the risk of shooting a certain class in the foot), I feel I need to repeat myself in mentioning that the assassins version of C&C still operates in the manner of the previous incarnation of the spell, which is +10 to both spot and listen. I haven't even bothered to test this out with a listen wand to see if it stacks at all... but, yeah. I'm guessing that will get adjusted at some point?

(Sorry 'bout that assassins! *ducks*)

*Edit* -

nature of the beast, stealth for some reason is an insanely touchy subject, blind people dont like getting spied on but dont want to invest in detection so they complain about it

QFT!

[cosmic ray]

Please add that to the custom changes or the wiki.
And all the other changes/fixes/nerfs to spells and feats lately.

Ki-step, Onehander, Light Blindness, ........

Its not that we dont want to do it. It takes time. It is also a kind of task that is boring. Any volunteers?

What's involved in that work?

[Blackman D]

well they probably werent updated since the last time it was touched then (amp was changed and C&C wasnt touched), but the DCs were suppose to be removed