Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

chad878262 wrote:All custom feats break stealth, making EW useless to the character types that actually are supposed to be using it. There have been some idea's to make stiffer requirements instead of nerfing it, but in all cases there are builds that still should be able to use it that would be left off (for example STR rogue builds, Monks, Rangers, etc. would be at a disadvantage if a stiff DEX requirement was added).

Attacking breaks stealth anyway, right? And Expose weakness is an attack, perhaps you can elaborate?

chad878262 wrote:The goal should really be to avoid the high BAB / Melee heavy builds abusing it for additional hits/crits when they are already landing them at a solid rate without EW.

I would think the way to accomplish this, if it is achievable, would be to tie the effectiveness of the feat in some way to a class mechanic, as opposed to a stat like Dex. If what the staff truly wants is to encourage the usefulness, and therefore the use, of this feat to rogue builds, but not to others mentioned above, could it be tied to sneak/death attack dice? For example, the bleed could stay a function of Dex mod, but the amount of AC decrease could be capped at an appropriate number and the AC decrease per hit could be some sort of formula like X/3=Y (Where X is total sneak attack and death attack dice and Y is AC decrease per hit).

It could even be balanced so that very very heavy investment in rogue makes it more worthwhile than it is now, medium keeps it about the same, and the dip for evasion makes the AC decrease almost negligible but keeps the rest.

I'm not sure this is the solution that satisfies everyone (or even anyone, really) but generally to incentivize a certain class or build to make use of a feat and discourage others you tie the feat to a class feature that others types of builds don't get. Surely there is some way to accomplish that here, yes?

Just to comment on Boddynock's suggestion...

What if the bleed value over time was equal to total number of sneak dice/death dice. If you have 7 dice total, your bleed is 7. But OMG watch out for a class with 13 sneak dice!!!!

Boddynock wrote:

chad878262 wrote:All custom feats break stealth, making EW useless to the character types that actually are supposed to be using it. There have been some idea's to make stiffer requirements instead of nerfing it, but in all cases there are builds that still should be able to use it that would be left off (for example STR rogue builds, Monks, Rangers, etc. would be at a disadvantage if a stiff DEX requirement was added).

Attacking breaks stealth anyway, right? And Expose weakness is an attack, perhaps you can elaborate?

chad878262 wrote:The goal should really be to avoid the high BAB / Melee heavy builds abusing it for additional hits/crits when they are already landing them at a solid rate without EW.

I would think the way to accomplish this, if it is achievable, would be to tie the effectiveness of the feat in some way to a class mechanic, as opposed to a stat like Dex. If what the staff truly wants is to encourage the usefulness, and therefore the use, of this feat to rogue builds, but not to others mentioned above, could it be tied to sneak/death attack dice? For example, the bleed could stay a function of Dex mod, but the amount of AC decrease could be capped at an appropriate number and the AC decrease per hit could be some sort of formula like X/3=Y (Where X is total sneak attack and death attack dice and Y is AC decrease per hit).

It could even be balanced so that very very heavy investment in rogue makes it more worthwhile than it is now, medium keeps it about the same, and the dip for evasion makes the AC decrease almost negligible but keeps the rest.

I'm not sure this is the solution that satisfies everyone (or even anyone, really) but generally to incentivize a certain class or build to make use of a feat and discourage others you tie the feat to a class feature that others types of builds don't get. Surely there is some way to accomplish that here, yes?

It breaks stealth as soon as you click the feat, instead of as soon as you attack. This becomes nearly impossible to time against moving targets...click right before the enemy moves and you've broken stealth without attacking. Stealth builds already have a lot of timing and micromanaging, this would be impossible to consistently make work. It was tested and found to not be workable, which is why replacing the feat with a custom one was rejected. It's also why I stated increasing the cool down to 18s is probably the best option.

Just leave it alone!
Let's not break anything else please...

If you really have to, make a high dex requirement 22+, or remove Evasion and Expose in Medium to Heavy Armor.

matelener wrote:I don't think the balance should be handled the way it is now, where you've got these must-have abilities that disturb the relative power by so much between those who take it and don't (or can't).

For example, if someone seeks an advice on a non-magic melee build, the most common (and correct) power-building advice would be to dip into a class with Evasion and take Expose Weakness later in the epics, assuming he hasn't planned to do so already.

This, of course, propagates into how the new content or class changes are designed. It did in the past - that's why dragon breathes always deal some damage even when a PC has evasion or improved evasion. If 160 is the base breath damage, successful reflex save halves it to 80 and having evasion halves it again to 40 which I find unfair towards low HP classes with evasion like rogues.

A hundred times this. My thoughts exactly. EW as it is now totaly kills creativity if you want to have a solid melee build. Sure, you can skip on it, but you are severely gimping the build while doing so.

one thing that should probably be pointed out as i didnt see anyone mention this is that while the auto hit is still a bug, the debuff will not apply unless you are able to actually hit the AC of the target

so if you would have missed without the auto it, the feat does nothing

this is the current fix for EW that was manageable without breaking anything but anything with fixing the auto hit part requires a custom feat which will ruin rogues (who are suppose to be the ones using it) from actually using it effectively from stealth

which is a huge downside to nerf the ones who its suppose to be for while nothing happens to those that simply dip into to abuse it, which is also basically why nothing more has been done about it

Blackman D wrote:
this is the current fix for EW that was manageable without breaking anything but anything with fixing the auto hit part requires a custom feat which will ruin rogues (who are suppose to be the ones using it) from actually using it effectively from stealth

which is a huge downside to nerf the ones who its suppose to be for while nothing happens to those that simply dip into to abuse it, which is also basically why nothing more has been done about it

Exactly, thank you BMD!

Give the Feat a Dex Requirement of 22+ and that should mitigate strength based melee builds from taking this as a "MUST HAVE" feat. If they have to choose between the Strength based benefits and the extra Dexterity, I think that is a valid trade off and one that many would not make.

There was some discussion around a DEX requirement, but the problem is Monks, Rangers and even some heavily invested Rogue builds go with STR or WIS rather than DEX... Making even a 16 DEX requirement would make Monks scratched off the list if they are going the intuitive route or STR route as most would only have 11-15 DEX. These are classes that gain evasion and are often invested in heavily which makes the DEX requirement less attractive. (and this is coming from the one that originally suggested it in QC). The idea is to make the feat useful to the classes that legitimately should be using it and that is not only DEX builds, since Monks and Rangers don't always have high dexterity. Evasion (Rogue 2, Monk 2, Ranger 9, Cleric with water domain) doesn't say "DEX build" to me... generally only the rogue will actually get very high dexterity... In addition, the requirements for EW (CL21, Epic Precision, Evasion) currently don't mention DEX at all...It just gives a bonus to bleed damage.

I understand the aim of putting in a high DEX requirement, but to me nerfs have to take in to consideration all of the build concepts they impact, not just one type of build they are trying to impact... In this case I imagine the focus is on CL30 builds with 9 DEX, a +3 items and EW as well as Crit builds that can essentially crit on 40% of their hits being helped by the lower AC making crit confirmation virtually automatic. While these types do tend to have low DEX, there are other build concepts that legitimately need EW to be able to damage certain enemy types that would also be hurt by such a requirement.

if a dex requirement were added, what would happen to strength rogues?

edit: additional thoughts

dex 22 requirement. i have an non aa, non magic, archer that doesn't hit 22 dex. i know that doesn't pertain to EW directly, but using it as a comparison. if dex 22 requirement is added, would that not make EW a feat that is mostly only reached by tieflings, elves, and those that build solely for mechanical power? if we configure the server in such a way, which asks folks to build solely for mechanical power, that would just feel wrong for rp pw

well heres a question about that, one i could actually jump in game to check (i think ive tried it at some point but dont remember) but i thought that EW doesnt even work with ranged weapons? i will admit tho, maybe it does and just doesnt work with thrown? the one i have it on is my 21/9 rogue assassin that uses shurikens and a katana, havent tried with a bow or something

Blackman D wrote:well heres a question about that, one i could actually jump in game to check (i think ive tried it at some point but dont remember) but i thought that EW doesnt even work with ranged weapons? i will admit tho, maybe it does and just doesnt work with thrown? the one i have it on is my 21/9 rogue assassin that uses shurikens and a katana, havent tried with a bow or something

It doesnt work on ranged attacks

ya, i was just using my archer as an example, that many dexers don't reach 22 dex

to be honest, many adventurers end up with a bit of rogue in them. it's pretty standard fare ic and ooc. i think it's just as much for one as for the other. as for the mechanical aspect, i feel EW, as well as evasion, are sound choices ic and ooc, and are a huge boon to all non-casters. and i think the server and the mobs are balanced with that in mind

as for fixing EW. if it could be fixed to work as the description states, i'd be all for that. as that seems not to be the case, i would leave it as is. just my opinion

Blame The Rogue wrote:if a dex requirement were added, what would happen to strength rogues?

edit: additional thoughts

dex 22 requirement. i have an non aa, non magic, archer that doesn't hit 22 dex. i know that doesn't pertain to EW directly, but using it as a comparison. if dex 22 requirement is added, would that not make EW a feat that is mostly only reached by tieflings, elves, and those that build solely for mechanical power? if we configure the server in such a way, which asks folks to build solely for mechanical power, that would just feel wrong for rp pw

1.) No one is asking to build for mechanical power with a Dex 22 Requirement.
2.) Humans can reach Dex 22 easy, sacrificing little besides power, especially since they can class dip rogue, or monk more readily than other classes for Evasion
3.) Obisidian made EW specifically to help Dex Builds with no Sneak Di, since they aren't powerful and not expecting it to be used by Fighter Rogue 3 Frenzied Berserker Weapon Masters with a Dex Bonus of 0
4.) Monks with low Dex might be the only consideration for whom gets shafted in this debate, but I wouldn't imagine there are many strength based monks with low dexterity, are there?

Displacer wrote:

Blame The Rogue wrote:if a dex requirement were added, what would happen to strength rogues?

edit: additional thoughts

dex 22 requirement. i have an non aa, non magic, archer that doesn't hit 22 dex. i know that doesn't pertain to EW directly, but using it as a comparison. if dex 22 requirement is added, would that not make EW a feat that is mostly only reached by tieflings, elves, and those that build solely for mechanical power? if we configure the server in such a way, which asks folks to build solely for mechanical power, that would just feel wrong for rp pw

1.) No one is asking to build for mechanical power with a Dex 22 Requirement.
2.) Humans can reach Dex 22 easy, sacrificing little besides power, especially since they can class dip rogue, or monk more readily than other classes for Evasion
3.) Obisidian made EW specifically to help Dex Builds with no Sneak Di, since they aren't powerful and not expecting it to be used by Fighter Rogue 3 Frenzied Berserker Weapon Masters with a Dex Bonus of 0
4.) Monks with low Dex might be the only consideration for whom gets shafted in this debate, but I wouldn't imagine there are many strength based monks with low dexterity, are there?

Ranger? 'real' cleric with water domain? (there are clerics that don't just dip the class). Obsidian made the feat buggy and it can't be fixed without scrapping the feat and creating a custom feat that introduces bugs of it's own.

chad878262 wrote:
Ranger? 'real' cleric with water domain? (there are clerics that don't just dip the class). Obsidian made the feat buggy and it can't be fixed without scrapping the feat and creating a custom feat that introduces bugs of it's own.

I personally am not asking to scrap the Feat, or to create a new one.
In fact, I do not want them to create a new feat since I helped them realize the last Feat Fix was far worse!

What I am saying, if there is an "abuse" problem, then you can help to mitigate that without punishing the people for whom the feat was intended by adding a DEX 22 requirement. That will keep the Water School Clerics from taking EW

(interest of full disclosure, I am also Bad Omens)