Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

[Convolutedline]

I can't breathe reading that thread.

I believe I just read a person wrote against it talking about warlock/sorc/theurgist.

That doesn't even fit the idea of what a theurgist is, it doesn't even fit the opening description.

Theurgist is party dependent that makes no sense.

What weapon is a person going to use as a mystic theurgist with 12 strength... 16 at best That won't last very long - if you wanna kill them like as fast a snail can glib up a wall. you gonna mystic theurge for that +4 or +6 mage armor easily dispelled, gonna take off your armor every day to cast that... Mem a bunch of still spells x.x

Best defense a mystic theurgist might have, similar to a spirit shaman is the freedom of movement / stone body stack and premonition... with the rate of damage of most creatures cr 18 + thats really like... ok good luck. Still dispellable, will the durations match up, lol your freedom of movement is gone but, not stone body or even worse the other way around, lol gg.

Now how you gonna kill them >x.x

[chad878262]

so you built a subpar caster, but were able to make it work? ok, great...but the key here is if you are going to throw 9 non-caster levels on to your Wizard (making your max CL 25) you have to understand you are dispellable and are instantly going to have DC's at least 2 less than you would otherwise. MT class should be no different... You can't expect to advance your abilities in two completely different spell casting classes without losing something from each. When I talk about the Sorcerer/SS/MT the reason is thus: You can have a Sorc15/SS5/MT10 @ 29 CL sorc and 19CL SS and the sorc side loses nothing. You are going to max out your Charisma, including great CHA feats in epics so your DC's will be the same as say a Sorc20/AS10 would have. Meanwhile, you also have your SS goodies with 7th level spells for support/healing/maybe DC's to handle certain mobs so you can conserve your sorc spells. This is not multi ability dependent, 13 WIS with a +3 item will give you your level 6 SS spells and you max CHA, the rest of the abilities can be however you want them to be. The reason this is used as an example is from a pure caster perspective, those 6 levels of SS spells are still going to have solid DC's due to synergy with the Sorcerer casting statistic and the Druid spell book is good for this purpose. However, you could also do similar with a Wizard 15/Cleric 5/MT10 since, but you would actually have level 8 cleric spells (CL15 natural) cast at CL19, while having CL29 Wizard. In this case you could go several ways...be the ultimate gish by taking auto-still 1-9 and worshipping a deity with the Strength domain, then use levels 3, 4, and 5 cleric spells for divine power...or go max INT with 15 WIS and use wizard spells for DC and cleric spells for healing and utility. Again, the point is you are really only losing your 3 epic feats from level 23, 26 and 29 which you would lose for any other PRC. However, whereas other PRC's are giving you some benefits to your existing casting, MT as you have it is giving you almost full caster capabilities in the other casting class. This is why I have been trying to explain that it needs to give something up to get that kind of power (namely, caster level in the primary casting class). A MT with high level spells in the divine simply should not be able to get the same DC as an Arcane caster mixed with Arcane Scholar or some other Arcane PRC that doesn't increase CL, there has to be something given up to gain. My thought would be perhaps you grant 8/10 or 9/10 progression in the 'chosen' casting class and 6/10 in the secondary class. So a W15/C5/MT10 would have CL27 arcane (assuming 8/10 progression) and CL15 (but only 11 for purposes of spell levels, which would allow level 6 spells for a cleric/druid, level 5 for FS/SS) in the secondary class. You are still almost a full wizard with the added utility of divine, by not hitting CL29 you miss exactly 1 DC from epic caster level so a focused caster in one magic type will have higher DC than you.

The above example is off the top of my head for purposes of this discussion, but something like that I would see as balanced. The other thought that was floated about was making MT only a 5 level PRC with full progression in both other classes, which would allow something like W20/C5/MT5, getting 4th level priest spells and 29 CL for the Wizard, with the idea being that if you wanted more divine power you are giving up the higher CL on the arcane side.

With regard to finding QC threads, they are QC only, so you would not be able to view or post to them. The thread that Tsidkenu linked was a previous public thread. I am sorry if you feel that the MT would be weak, but I've provided the reasoning behind why that is not the case. We have many players on this server who know how to manipulate builds in to absolute wrecking balls of destruction and balance is key to ensuring we don't go to far (such as introducing additional favored soul / bard levels of power).

[Convolutedline]

oooooh I like the five level full progression very much! That is short an sweet! It fills a progression slot so would only get to choose one more like frost mage or scholar would still not be an archmage - scholar makes sense an aurilite makes sense - because the theurgist is gonna need to find a way to amp up frost mage might be common.


That is really important part of game because I'd always be frustrated that people die an I can't raise dead or I can't fight but, hey if they die I' can help but, if I die gg.


that makes a lot of sense to me.. Being only person to try this mystic theurge without prc that I've seen... [maybe a person or two admitted to me but, I never saw] I just got level 10 idea as I've seen that from other servers but they are high magic so I chose the higher qualifications an lower benefits

There is a really big hurdle / bump past level 10 as mystic theurge at about goblins an stuff, the dungeons become longer, your hp is really low etc.. you can sorta get by taking armor off earlier or choosing to level cleric first an taking xp penalty so that would be pretty good at least to try

right an yes making choices about dc vs more spell versatility later would be good that makes sense - that amplifies the disparity between focused caster an non focused caster greater than just the bonus feat specializations an spell penetration benefits.

I don't think that mystic theurge is weak, I just think mine can't last very long as I'd like an relative to a wrecking ball of destruction as you wrote, it is weak. - this PrC would just make my character viable / more likely to be viable - like, not needing the trickster levels an such. Like a wiz/cler cannot just exist as is relative to other pcs it just doesn't bring much to the group like that. It gets too difficult to level up without a PrC for this due to extranneous limiting factors.- I think I rcrd a pure trickster really x.x just x.x

Like as is wiz/cle is helpful but I needed the bow to get to this point an later epici stuff the bow is not really useful - its just covering too much terrain, in a group of two though the bow might be needed until you can't kill stuff with it because am relying on sneak attacks an things are immune to sneak or damage reduction is high because - on an oooooooooooooon

like as is I sorta fill in for rogues, wizards, clerics an its kind of annoying - likes it too much versatility I think it leaves people feeling out in the cold or so - Like if I pair with a really strong fighter an such its a really good mix but, I am relying on the fighter a lot an I can only keep them going where they can't for a short amount of time relative to dungeon length, like I'd probably still put points into spot an search just because traps freak me out but, x.x
People picked rogue because they didn't want to just be damage dealers, an etc.. they wanna sneak get locks that stuff. Even then most warriors an stuff can face tank traps an bash locks so its not like I feel lik I brought value; an I get annoyed always sneak attacking stuff like it was a choice necessitated because storm bolt did like no damage Also it pulls wayyy too much aggro on me as a primarily caster like noooo that is not what I want as a theurgist aggro is bad x.x

Like there are lots of varieties of clerics an wizards but, I really don't see just spell casters as much unless is warlock an then they are merlocks an such...

I'd need to look at the cleric options of PrC because xp penalty leveling might be a challenge after the 5 levels of MT though it might also be fitting of the class I dunno

yes bardic archers are very strong an I traveled with a powerful favoured soul but he gave up once conviction an greater resistance would no longer stack.

I just want to see more dynamic play style - where debuffing is actually a valued mid combat asset that has a semi reliable amount of success aside from prayer an like mass curse of blades. like for last floor of Ulcasters ruins - it helps a lot x.x

[Convolutedline]

like i'm level 26 an still can't raise dead its like there is aoe damage so I could cure light wounds aoe and the heal spell would heal like 90 hp with the 5 level prc at lower levels - omitting practiced spellcaster - that would make them par I think or maybe even a little stronger but, still because spells per day an low magic server it'd be like - they 'd need to ration it out. An did they just put points into wis / int or w.e or like x.x x.x x.x

the 5 level would fit perfectly for that time of adventuring an hopefully sustain through later

and I would totally teeeeest iiiiiiiiit - though I really don't do power builds an stuff - I try but, I just don't really do metamagic feats an like ehh - I can hit for like over 100 damage with orbs b.c sneak attack though x.x yay.


also I really like the new summon interface an summon options from planar binding an such that looks really good I might look at thaumaturge x.x

raise dead scrolls are expensive to me I've 170bags an its the most I've ever gotten x.x unless I could get my old archived character an combine wealth but even then maybe 300 bags x.x agh

[V'rass]

I have used 15/15 for a while and it does decently despite its weaknesses.

[Convolutedline]

I've never seen you x.x

where do you go?

its pretty weak/difficult x.x

[Tsidkenu]

My current main, Aeili, is a 17/13 wiz/cleric as well. Mind you I have no interest in grinding areas or engaging in PvP so I cannot really tell you the efficacy of the build except that I reached level 30 with her prohibited school being Illusion, so no invis, mirror image, concealment etc except from the scant potions/wands I picked up from PC/NPC merchants.

Could probably do more with the build but I just don't really care any more

[Convolutedline]

oh, yea - I primarily like going to dungeons. Its mostly what I do when I play here - I like rp at times, but I generally avoid people so, I can just speak to the efficacy of it.

It is fun to run around an talk to people here at times though but, is primarily not my objective.

[Convolutedline]

Reposting this as it was deleted for "profanity"

DC 24 is like nothing at level 20 - unless you identify the targets weakness which - takes several spells, an who stays at the same dungeon all day an remembers the weaknesses of every target an even then, who has the spells available / versatility for that.What if a dm shows up and spams new monsters on you an you're like uhhhhhm shoot ... good thing I have ethereal jaunt, only took til level 20 for me to get that.. fffff

many creatures have at least spell resist 22 later aside from chance of dc which is usually at about 24 - mind you I have +8 bonus from int with items, +9 with fox cunning and greater intelligence +1 my wis is 22 its really just not a palpable option

its like the descriptions for PrCs [this class is very common for blahblahblah and oh only a few of so so would ever do this but, not really] like - spirit it just doesn't make sense to combine a sorc an spirit shaman.

There would be literally no reason - like a spirit shaman that wants to cast low dc fireballs? Does not need mystic theurge for that - there are so many better options available to them. Like does a spirit shaman really want to give up armor? Additionally the spirit shaman wouldn't be getting the spirit guide the raise undead all of those really useful feats - chastise spirits is just like eck..

Thing that really makes mystic theurge - as the description I've read online - is the versatility, I can get people out of binds quickly and I can curse opponents or raise defenses..

Honestly its closer to a shaman class than I think spirit shaman is because to be an asset to a group I literally need to pop in where its needed most. Epic mass heal or mass curse of impending blades - a prayer, a recitation etc..they don't last as long as a pure cleric but, they don't need to; so its more a dynamic play style. Its not super buff heavy run in an smash. Like I literally can't use crushing depression or curse nothing with a dc as is.

Like literally nothing - its just a wasted spell an makes my character look dumb. Like if they're that weak for my dc to hit them with crushing despair, chances are I didn't need to cast crushing despair on them.. It would really allow for a use of spells I actually never see in play in game... Which is part of why I like the remove paralysis cure for bigbys idea I thought an such just because I always have it memmed but, I really rarely use it. [if you read the bigbys thread]


This is only place I've actually used a forum like this for like an actual intent purpose. Like I' need to know where things are an such. I don't even know where the quality control thread is filed, I've tried finding it an sub directories of it but, I didn't find it though I' think I might've posted to it through searching a post I wrote responding to epic mass heal. This is my fiftieth post or so from post logger

its not gravy because you're still weak as ... - I am tilted towards arcane with my pseudo theurgist an I rely on sneak attack ranged touch damage an exploiting the weaknesses of my targets - always the targets weakness which I always gotta figure out or kinda lore meta know what it might be but, not really know. Like at best I'd gain two feats from my longbow focus an improved crit longbow - that is all the wiggle room I have on this char because its so like difficult. I can't even hurt a lot of creatures with the bow an the creatures I kill with magic well, I don't have a lot of spells so I can really only last a few encounters like this.. Like arc of lightning to avoid spell resistance almost always, orbs of sound an such.. I can't cast things like combust it just won't happen most of the time. Like even without all that like to make my ranged touch attacks I need zen archery because my dex is (#2) x.x like, only reason I even make ranged touch attacks is because of zen archery wisdom, I think a person told me my weapon impacts that too but, I think thats just dsm I'm not sure... I seem to do the same with no weapon equipped...

Like I honestly believe even with a mystic theurge prc I'd still instead get a rune of damage with 30 second cooldown feat I like the cooldown change that (#2) was op without cooldown and maybe like, storm bolt just because I won't have the sustain. leveling up spells per day for one class or choosing class per level in my experience in a high magic server is still not a lot of spells x.x but, you'd be able to hang in a better without being so reliant on people.. [aka I could dump arcane trickster an maybe be a decent useful spellcaster who is afraid of one shotted by traps..... that has a light no asf shield an a spell per day 1 h item... like a wand or whatever x.x because this build needs spell per day everything from my experience. my int item gives spell per day... I think I have two slots that don't - one of them gives regen, wisdom & charisma [grams] an you need regen with this build especially early because, you get knocked unconscious by like, everything an thank goodness your party doesn't dump you then.. x.x so glad I have gear for my current build because I died soooo much more before it was so sad.

Like belt of rauthma-whatever is so rare here an what does it do?

+2 wizard spell +3 wizard spell
bonus spell pen
bonus spell foc evoc

like... lol - you know who won't be picking spell pen an just getting it on an item.. Devoted casters who don't necessarily need it but, like the assurance and.. Mystic theurge who won't have the feats to afford it x.x

More insights like, currently my chances to effectively hold monster a lizard folk the cave past frost giants is like 40% - 50% an they've a save like, every round.. my char is level 26 there are always like two of them and they can still "kill me".. I think proudest moment with this character is when I could solo the outside of the haunted house at like level 18 - 20 I had a summon an, needed to use my bow... The spells just got me out of overwhelming binds or when my summon died. I need to use my lvl 9 spells to cast premonition because divination is gone for spells per day like ugh.. I don't even get to choose that kind of trade with cleric, yay healing domain though or healing is absolutely worthless. Which given the spells available you won't be able to cast heal very often if or very soon, an if you can well, your spell level is whack an its not impacted by empower healing so, might as well just use cure serious wounds.

I have extend metamagic feat only because my spells cannot sustain or could not sustain long enough otherwise - no empower, maximize - nothing. For a long time people thought it was impossible buildl, people would tell me so an I might a lot of nice people who played with me regardless. an like; even still I've only sort of made it work just from becoming really diligent about understanding what ignores what saves on an on like all spellcasters should.


To this point I've yet to see another person try to make a mystic theurge an of only seen theurge mentioned in ulcaster dungeon... Like I didn't even know thats an actual meta for dnd until I was playing like a year or so ago -

Most clerics I meet are like; always fighting or they are the variety that just runs around casting regen, same with wiz just buffing or blasting, i'm looking for more middle ground of casting.
7 wizard 6 cleric 3 rogue 10 trickster

[chad878262]

By definition if you are looking for a 'middle ground' you are not going to be as strong as a dedicated caster. It appears that you understand this so I am not really sure what your concern is? You want a Wizard who takes cleric and rogue levels to be a better wizard? Drop some of those other classes... If it is an RP thing than you can't really complain about the lack of power, just looking at the class split should tell you it's not going to be a great build (doesn't mean it can't be great for RP).

On topic of the MT, hopefully you can see where some of the issues lie with finding the balance between being useful, but not OP. From a DC perspective, it is only impacted by your casting stat (INT for Wizard) and CL in epics (+1 at 23, 26, 29, 32, 35). This is why I stated a CL29 Wizard, regardless of any other classes can have the same DC as any CL30 Wizard. So a W20/AS10 would have the same DC as a W15/C5/MT10, for instance if the CL for the W is 29 and the INT is the same. The reason I stated the secondary casting stat (in this case WIS) can be relatively low is because items can be used to increase it. So you could have a 13 WIS if you aren't using your cleric spells for DC casting because a +3 item will allow for level 6 spells, +4 item will allow for level 7 spells. This is what I meant when I said there really is not much being given up in this case to be an MT, which is why I commented that in order to balance MT there needs to be something lost in order to gain the benefit of casting both Arcane and Divine spells.

[Convolutedline]

It doesn't work - need the ranged sneak attack damage from trickster for it to be effective
the trickster supplement compensates well more for the loss of 3 levels of rogue. Then the bow for whatever creatures that don't require magic to fight. This is my best theurgist so far given current structure. I think you don't understand that this has really been all I've played since I 2011 hehe I made an arcane trickster purely once.

right yes if including practiced spellcaster feat an point skill dumping

I think the mystic theurge would be better at 5 levels
if the prereq is 5 / 5 hierophant and archwizard are inaccessible. I don't know many rules but, I know the rule of character levelling by level 20 Which I think direction of this is more balanced as those are really powerful class spell focuses - those also by description require more study. which a theurgist is already studying a lot so its like ehh x.x

I believe the loss of turn undead and a bonus feat are relatively significant as well as the inability to access heirophant and archwizard - would drive more arcane scholars and frost mages.. Maybe palemasters even... [i'll look at how the leveling impacts those next]

Hierophant doubles healing x.x that would be amazing with cleric healing domain / empowered healing. [empowered healing is 50% increase x.x]

Yes I can see what you're saying - I forgot people do that... Their spells would be incredibly weak though... level 14 spells [if practiced spellcaster feat] will always dispel at yuan ti an I cannot remember prior but, its not good from memory.. I suppose if they got it for the heals they'd have a few.. even the lesser amulet of master 22 spell resist they'd have 40% chance of hitting the target without investing feats towards spell penetration an such

There are also questions on my mind of domain use by cler/wiz but, that kind of investment of levels for a domain seems arbitrary relative to other choices.

I think a mystic theurge more fills in gaps or supports a role... as what I've done with arcane trickster theurgist -

like a person making a theurgist would have more spells per day an more access to spells but, they'd really need to plan their choices an where they are going to make use of those...

Its super awkward when the fighter cleric breaks from combat taking attacks of opportunity to heal a person who then gets mobbed by the mobs ganking the fighter cleric because thats sort of the direction of the server an at times the spaciousness of dungeon layouts are restrictive though not definitively so [just an example I know I want mystic theurge an all - Ill throw in a save the [insert what to be saved here] for sure... :S ]

Even then with more spells an spells per day equipment would most likely need a reserve feat. [ i just learned the runes all share one cooldown? so, two runes is out... x.x :3 ] I think its just an option away from being a highly specialized caster towards a broader one capable extending a specialized casters capacity or expanding the breadth of those capacities while seeing more spell variety which isn't really an option or happening currently. [I was told warlocks got nerfed and I saw it :O feels legit ] what archwizard is going to invest their spells towards curse of impending blades an such when they can just nuke it down [or at least try to] an in the process is more likely to succeed.

A theurgist could bring damage spells [or more likely reserve feats] an even then the reserve feats might benefit from an increase of dc that as is prior is too low... Not even to mention that the creature might be immune so :S

I will look at this more later though x.x I' sleep now

I will look at the math of dcs when I wake up I feel like im fogging it but, I think the loss of those prc trees is quite substantial relative to power dynamics... An archmage can make all their spells party friendly x.x a theurgist would still be like ok, what has the best odds of actually landing a hit.

[Steve]

I'd be sooooo interested in the RP of a Sorcerer/Spirit Shaman! Right now, we're looking at SS 10 / Hierophant 6 / Sorc 6 / Arcane Scholar 4. That's only CL 23 / 14. Not going to cut it on BGTSCC at the moment.

[Convolutedline]

I'm thinking from re-reading this the main benefit of being a mystic theurge wouldn't really be caster level so much as spells per day - maybe if the caster level could progress every other level and the prc was 10 levels? Its really the lack of spells that would impact a mystic theurge with the availability of both spellcasting schools --- - is that relatively simple with prexisting schemas of PrC [I am imaging just substituting variables

Like a mystic theurge is not as experienced casting spells as knowing spells due to study thus encouraging practiced spell caster feats? An idea like that? Like it would be 5/5 cl but for 10 levels? or maybe 7 levels? a different sort of integer mix / match


Just looking at spirit shaman's spell set I'm not really worried by it; Almost all available spells have saves unlike arcane casters of bgtscc... So a spirit shaman mystic theurge would choose that route for buffs and heals at the cost of class feats? Their spell pool is a lot smaller as well x.x

I was thinking maybe a person might mystic theurge fighter for self buffing an use divine power but, that doesn't seem like a good idea either - the loss of ab just from leveling would be... X.x

like it'd need to be focused

maybe a true strike divine power caster but, thats for uhm.. Not longlasting - with auto still spell - plate mail but, that person probably wouldn't want mystic theurge levels - really don't know where that person would get the feats for both x.

I found a thread listing the popular arcane PrCs
Arcane Archer - 116 (6.89%)
Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep - 802 (47.62%)
Arcane Trickster - 245 (14.55%)
Archmage - 226 (13.42%)
Blood Magus - 233 (13.84%)
Daggerspell Mage - 111 (6.59%)
Eldritch Knight - 321 (19.06%)
Frost Mage - 92 (5.46%)
Master Alchemist - 76 (4.51%)
Pale Master - 436 (25.89%)
Red Wizard ** - 31 (1.84%)
Shadow Adept - 84 (4.99%)
Techsmith of Gond - 106 (6.29%)
Thaumaturge - 136 (8.08%)


Seems as far as dcs an such are concerned red wizard would probably be bad regarding dcs but, thats dm approval only so :c

daggerspell wouldn't be op either

It seems to me that it'd be very particular set

A shadow adept might have fair enough saves for their schools so I could see a mystic theurge shadow adept - at penalty to invocation an such...

Also I like that a mystic theurge would have more spells per day so would be more viable to make use of spells like assay resistance [would be able to slot this spell] or mind fogs clouds, spells I don't really see later - mostly because fighters an stuff can gun it all down really fast. so to this end maybe mystic theurge is pointless.

though
those spells would not only benefit a theurge but, the more powerful casters possibly guaranteeing spell success where otherwise would not be possible.

A mystic theurge could compensate for archmage nuke power by counter buffing like mind blank for a cloud of - or a death ward if one fighter for cloudkill / horrid wilting.

Its a different means of approach that would benefit lots of people where as arch mage could just make use of class progression.


looking at spell dcs again lets say is

5 wizard/ 5cleric /5 mystic theurge = 15

caster level 10 / 10 [practiced spell caster 14 / 14 ]
soo if a person dumped points into wizard then they'd be 29 / 14 which is what you've been saying [ spells per day as 25 / 10]

an my thought is the cost to them is inability to become supremely powerful because they lost at one spell type - most likely won't be dominating a hill giant... loss of two bonus feats and the liikely ability to make effective use of the abilities from their non developed class by distributing their points an etc - makes building that really ineffective

like a person would really need to develop this - I was looking at scholar of candlekeep and that wouldn't work well most likely, frost mage for a few levels but, not for piercing cold...

Blood magus might be the scariest combination of an arcane theurgist that I can see but, that is at cost of rp

[chad878262]

sorry, but the loss of epic feats is the cost of ANY multi-classing...Cost of RP is not enough either.

As I stated previously, thus far any introduction of MT would come with a caveat that no other PRC's would be allowed, so I wouldn't be worried about W/C/MT/BM because it wouldn't be possible.

The point is that there is a cost for Arcane Scholar, you have to take some feats that you would not otherwise take, same with EK and others...On top of this what you gain is relatively limited. AS gets a benefit of 1 level lower cost for metamagic (Practical MetaMagic, Empower, Maximize, Quicken depending on how far you go in the class), but has to take 2 feats they would almost certainly not take otherwise.... The only think EK gets is high BAB and d6 instead of d4 HP and it costs feats as well as losing 1 CL at EK1.

So again, what is the MT going to give up in order to get levels where they are essentially gaining 2 Caster Levels for every 1 level gained?

[Convolutedline]

Can an active penalty to spellcaster be implemented - is there pre-existing code?

ok so its a matter of disproportionate inequal/unequal exchanges ok I think about it more

I don't really know what would be equitable as far as PrC pre-requisites

I'm reading forums about mystic theurge with 3.5 rule sets an this is what I found

https://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-604221.html

"The prerequisities are a killer. 3 levels given up off each spellcasting class. How to make it not suck? Lower the requirement to caster level 2 rather than second level spells (and then ban a feat or two).

As things stand, the Mystic Theurge hits third level spells after the bard (L8 vs L7) and 4th level spells at the same time (L10). You need your level to be actively in the teaens before you are an actively better caster than the bard. And the bard is the weakest main caster in 3.X (largely because it does so much else) but manages to mix illusionist and healer, complete with its own sometimes extremely powerful spells (*cough*Glibness*cough*). "

Jack of All Trades characters can be evaluated by comparing them to the Bard; if the bard wins over a significant portion of gameplay go back to the drawing board (never mind that Paizo nerfed the Bard).

But you also need to remember that the Theurge has literally twice as many spells. It's not just "4th level spells", it's "4th level spells and the full allotment of spells known/memorized from 2 primary casting classes." Twice as many spells, and pulling from both the full Wiz/Sorc list and either the Cleric or Druid list is significantly better than just 1 set of spells from the Bard list...

That's a good thought, but perhaps the most significant lesson 3e had to teach is that weak generalization is never as good as strong specialization, particularly in any situation involving the action economy.

you hardly ever notice the "behind the curve" because you are blasting out spells left and right, and if you are a wizard/cleric you have access to the complete list of the most useful/powerful spells in the game.

Maybe a mystic theurge can't get level 9 spells would be the trade? or a spell level cut off