New Speartop mobs

[chad878262]

This is compiled suggestions from the group I went there with. For purposes of the power level we had Rev (dwarf tank), Elvina (SS bad@$$/buffer), Chord (STR Bard/Requiem), Kory (FvS), Jane (R/SD), Plar (Roguish type?), and Tirion (so 5 out of 7 were various powerful builds)...

Here is our suggestions / what we noticed:

1. Greater Dispel working against certain CL30 buffs needs fixed (M3ntalist bumped this in QC earlier today, so it is already on the radar)

2. Mobs with Mords kinda suck. Mobs with Epic spells suck even more. Would be nice if this was reserved for bosses or, at minimum very rare for mobs. Especially with the epic spells, while I get it creates a fun challenge, when you're seeing these spells thrown out by the pawns, they don't feel very 'epic'

3. KD and paralysis didn't prove too much a problem, but look at the party we took... If mobs have IKD/Paralysis, those mobs should spawn at a lesser rate to avoid party wipes for less OP parties of 3-5 characters.

4. Would be nice if there was at least one unbashable DC: 50 chest to encourage bringing along a rogue... Maybe even some traps (or not)

5. The AB is fine...It encourages using a Tank to engage first and try to keep agro with high AC and good strength (to protect from knockdown) and saves (to protect from paralysis)

6. Sneak Attack wasn't working on most enemies. Jane/Mallore can provide more detail, but even when some enemies are knocked down they couldn't be sneak attacked.

7. It's a Dragon Lair, there should be some gold piles to loot with a decent reward for a tough battle.

8. Beautiful area and fun to RP through... Would be nice though if the white dragon didn't respawn while we were RP'ing our enjoyment of the epic victory (and this really applies to all bosses) is there a way to make a trigger so that it only respawns when you come through the entrance and not if a group is RP'ing after the boss fight? Not sure if ti is possible, but would be nice for folks to savior the moment after such an epic battle.

9. As Valefort said, spawn rate is not too high, we made a good pace, walking the whole time and I only ever saw one enemy spawn behind us as we made our way through the area.


Overall a really nice area that was not taxing for our large and powerful group, but would be challenging for 3-5 with no powerbuilds, but still doable, so long as you have a tank that can get 60+AC (doesn't have to be dwarven defender, other builds can reach this), and a couple of casters that can buff him up, keep him alive and do some decent damage. So if we were to make it beneficial to have a roguish type along the area would really be encouraging getting a 'standard' D&D party together with a 'fighter', 'cleric', 'wizard', and 'rogue' at a minimum. I think everyone agreed on the above points, but they can post if not.

That's all for now, thanks to everyone that joined me today, was lots of fun... Sorry you didn't catch us Snarfy, next time send me a tell man, we'll wait!

[Mallore]

From the fantastic list above. This was a great time running around with these guys and the rp adventure was great. Felt like a true epic journey.

6. Sneak Attack wasn't working on most enemies. Jane/Mallore can provide more detail, but even when some enemies are knocked down they couldn't be sneak attacked.



So, sneak attack was working fine on everything. There was not a monster you could not sneak attack as long as you had epic precision. As an epic area, you should total have this, its the no brainier must feat for level 21. Sneak attack even worked on the dragon, which is wonderful and terrifying, for once you hit him, he turns from your "tank" and eats you in three hits. I figure after I get epic dodge... i might be able to get away from him quick enough so he goes back eating dwarves.

The problem is that Knockdown doesn't allow for sneak attack for some reason currently.

If your traveling with someone who uses knockdown, or their pet knocks down an enemy you will no longer get sneak attack on them. You will still hit and damage them like normal but you seam to do know sneak attack. ((I will see if I can generate some combat logs to show))

You will be flanking or behind, doing sneak attack damage then the monster falls over, and your just doing regular damage.

Its something easy to test if others want to see. You just gotta find a monster with enough hp to last long enough to see.


Thanks again for the awesome run.


Also as a side thought, it be really cool if the two frost wurms, (forgot their real name) that are on the way, had an ambushing spawn. Like they spawn in the middle of the group, because they are flying around swooping in! they got wings they aint gonna walk down a hill and attack players! they swoop in from the clouds! so ambush! initiative mods would matter too! Just a wild thought.

[Nyeleni]

The weird thing are the kobolds in the Snow Deep Cave afterwards. Too easy.

[Aelcar]

In a group this place is not bad. However we were a pretty strong party. Lord Stonehold, Elvina, Chord Silverstrings, Kory and some others were with us. We were able to wreck it pretty easily and even got our slayer on with the dragon and beat it but as I stated we were a strong group. Anytime you have a Dwarf, Spirit Shaman, Bard and FvS in the group you are going to wreck some stuff.

Well done. However, that's not really the issue. Seeing the numbers, I am pretty sure my Wizard, played properly, can raze the place alone, but let's remember the issue:

As it is now it's too challenging, it requires powerbuilding and/or optimizing, which is not a good thing.

Chad's detailed feedback seems to confirm that is, indeed, the problem: if you need three top tier builds (DD, FS, STR Bard), one of the oldest and most well established characters on BGTSCC (Elvina), and three more people to "have a good pace" it seems as though Valefort might be concerned with good reason.

3. KD and paralysis didn't prove too much a problem, but look at the party we took... If mobs have IKD/Paralysis, those mobs should spawn at a lesser rate to avoid party wipes for less OP parties of 3-5 characters.

Exactly. 2-3 people with simply reasonable builds would be deleted by the KD spam already, in an environment with those numbers flying around.

There's nothing wrong with challenge, but it has to come with counterplay. KD spam has a very limited counterplay, and almost all of it is pretty slow and RNG-based (excluding going around with 400 potions of Foundation of Stone...)

[chad878262]

In a group this place is not bad. However we were a pretty strong party. Lord Stonehold, Elvina, Chord Silverstrings, Kory and some others were with us. We were able to wreck it pretty easily and even got our slayer on with the dragon and beat it but as I stated we were a strong group. Anytime you have a Dwarf, Spirit Shaman, Bard and FvS in the group you are going to wreck some stuff.

Well done. However, that's not really the issue. Seeing the numbers, I am pretty sure my Wizard, played properly, can raze the place alone, but let's remember the issue:

As it is now it's too challenging, it requires powerbuilding and/or optimizing, which is not a good thing.

Chad's detailed feedback seems to confirm that is, indeed, the problem: if you need three top tier builds (DD, FS, STR Bard), one of the oldest and most well established characters on BGTSCC (Elvina), and three more people to "have a good pace" it seems as though Valefort might be concerned with good reason.

3. KD and paralysis didn't prove too much a problem, but look at the party we took... If mobs have IKD/Paralysis, those mobs should spawn at a lesser rate to avoid party wipes for less OP parties of 3-5 characters.

Exactly. 2-3 people with simply reasonable builds would be deleted by the KD spam already, in an environment with those numbers flying around.

There's nothing wrong with challenge, but it has to come with counterplay. KD spam has a very limited counterplay, and almost all of it is pretty slow and RNG-based (excluding going around with 400 potions of Foundation of Stone...)

Absolutely correct. My plan was after the run with this large party with several very powerful characters was to try a run with some less powerful characters, or to try it with my Bard solo to see how far he got (without even attempting the White Dragon, of course). However, I didn't see it as necessary since it is quite easy to figure what generally would happen... If any mob is spamming something, the way the RNG works is going to cause a '1' at some point which will equate to being knocked down or paralyzed. When this occurs at the same time as a spawn hitting a mords/greater dispel and another mob hitting Vamp feast, Gate or the like my wards drop and I get hit with a whole lot of damage very quickly (end up in fugue).

Really the minimum I can see as a 'viable' party for this run would be Dwarven Defender or Dragon Druid to tank, FvS or STR bard (preferably both) for survivable damage dealer (FS would either need to be EDM, EW or some other form of reliable damage since the physical damage will pretty much always be absorbed). While it is good to have areas requiring groups, in this case it sort of requires 2-3 Epic Power Builds, it would be nice if it could be accomplished by 3 or more RP/regular builds. It does NOT need to cater to characters that are insanely weak/poorly built, but it should cater to folks that don't make cookie cutter/optimized top tier characters.

Regarding Damage, My STR 27 Bard with Improved Power Attack when he actually hit was doing 0 or 1 physical damage, all damage was coming from Fire buff from Elvina's flame blade and Bard Magic Damage, which I had to turn off for AC buff for the party. The White Dragon is REALLY Hard (a very cool thing), and it is great that the mobs leading to the cave have become more of a challenge, they are just currently a challenge that basically requires too select a group of PC's to be something a decent population of the server can enjoy.

[Mallore]

I would like to suggest, that wondering if this area can be done with three people shouldn't even be an option and should require a minimum of 4.

So three power pcs and something else should be base line...

so six mid range power players can totally do that area.. the dragon maybe not.


Though my character that went along with the Power Group is a pure RP build. I had a blast running with them. I could hit things, (the dragon only on super good rolls), I was able to run about and didn't feel like I was not participating.

I was also that groups handy cap in a way, as I needed buffs, and I did get killed by the dragon each time it spawned... so I soaked up scrolls!

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A note about kolbolds with their Mord Rods. We came up with a sorta clever way to deal with those buggers, and having puzzles in the game like that are good. In-fact I think the rods should stay to stop solo play. It is good to have things that make groups, stop, think and deal with a situation instead of race through to the boss, get loot.

[chad878262]

I think the issue is it can be difficult to get 6 people together without meta-gaming. The group we put together was because I was sending tells so that it could be tested based on Valefort's solo observations. In the normal course of play my experience is 2-5 people forms a 'group' so expecting only groups with 3 powerbuilds and one non-power build is relatively restrictive... Not saying this isn't acceptable since speartop is supposed to be the hardest place on the surface, but as has been stated by others, it is also encouraging players to make powerbuilds, which is not necessarily what the goal should always be. Many people do not like to meta others locations or OOC set up an excursion to dungeon X... When these things grow organically it enhances the experience for some. That is why I said what I did. I do think that it's ok to be balanced for 3 PB's so long as 4 or 5 non-PB's can still do it, even if it is challenging, but I am still only talking about the approach, not the white dragon itself. That has always been the boss that requires at LEAST 2 powerbuilds, and even then it requires very good mechanical knowledge and players able to execute that knowledge. Otherwise I have heard of huge parties going to the White Dragon and getting total party wiped.

A note about kolbolds with their Mord Rods. We came up with a sorta clever way to deal with those buggers, and having puzzles in the game like that are good. In-fact I think the rods should stay to stop solo play. It is good to have things that make groups, stop, think and deal with a situation instead of race through to the boss, get loot.

Another tactic for solo would be invisibility/sanctuary/HiPS/etc. find the kobold shaman or whatever it is that has a rod and kill him... I agree they could stay and I think they've always been there. The epic spells are a much bigger issue to me and that is due to the immersion / lore factor moreso than any balance concerns.

[Aelcar]

I would like to suggest, that wondering if this area can be done with three people shouldn't even be an option and should require a minimum of 4.

I don't think that's the issue.

I can solo any area of your choice on my Wizard, this one included. I would enter it, test their saves and abilities (in tranquillity, as almost nothing on the server can kill my wizard), exit, prepare accordingly, and proceed to kill everything efficiently when I re-enter. As I said, being 2,3,4 or more isn't the main issue. The problem is the KIND of characters you need, not to risk getting mauled without counterplay.

An example: you can make an area where enemies are almost unbeatable aside from their low Reflex saves. It's not a splendid idea, because that kind of counterplay is limited to very few archetypes.

[arakes99]

Knockdown makes the target prone (Think laying on their backs, looking up at you or rolling around) and it's not supposed to allow sneak attacks because they are prone.

Anyway I am pretty sure this is per DnD rules and it has always worked this way. Definitely not a BGTSCC bug or issue specifically.

[NegInfinity]

Knockdown makes the target prone (Think laying on their backs, looking up at you or rolling around) and it's not supposed to allow sneak attacks because they are prone.

Anyway I am pretty sure this is per DnD rules and it has always worked this way. Definitely not a BGTSCC bug or issue specifically.

Sneak attack deals damage when target is flanked OR denied their dex bonus (flat footed).

Stun, sleep, paralysis, or not getting the first attack at the beginning of combat makes target prone to sneak attacks
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Flat-footed

I think sure knockdown also would count as being flatfooted.

[Stonebar]

I'm in the opinion that no Troll should have access to Epic spells out side of a boss! Though I might be racist against Trolls being a Dwarf player

[RunEMC]

Raising a dead thread
Apparently these trolls can cast Hellball without disregard of the cooldown periods
Two was thrown at me in under a minute

[Darkwind]

Sorry, had to put that little funny caveat out front.

But I am finally of a level where I can run about the ultra hard places for exploration if nothing else. Speartop outside is difficult and about what I expected even if it simply piles on to the absurdity of the power creep that has become BGTSCC. That is a server wide issue so not going to flog that particular undead horse any further.

However, inside the Dragon Cave? LOLWUT? Kobolds! Not Dragonkin. Kobolds. 1 experience point a piece kobolds and every single one of them can fire off Mord's Disjunction at will. Umm... yeah.

Is that just for the lulz? Because it is sadistic to a level I've never quite encountered since I was about 14 years old and my friend learned how to 'DM' the first few games. It is one of the lamest things I've seen on this server and again, perhaps the point is just to make this area unobtainium difficult? Interestingly, my character functions pretty well after being dispelled because I grew weary of the Greater Dispels flying off rank and file gnolls, yuan-ti, etc. but Disjoining Kobolds sorta kicked it up a notch.

Can someone explain this in any rational way to me? Or as I said, it is purposefully irrational?

UPDATE: Ok, that's cool MRM, I don't have a problem w/ that as there should be some areas like that which Netherese Maze is but in an entirely different way. It is just a mental note that I will -never- go there again unless held at bowpoint to do so.

[mrm3ntalist]

it is purposefully irrational. Everything in that area does not make sense compared to "how to 'DM' the games". It aims to prevent any single build from soloing the are and is the one and only area that is done this way. The exception to the rule if you like.