Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Aspect of Sorrow wrote:There is no reason to assume that D&D is anything but influenced by RL things, rather than trying to emulate it.

I'm looking for constructive feedback on designing the class and making it work. "DnD =/= IRL" is very much NOT IT.

Anecdotal dissertations is clutter. The history lesson is nice but not a basis of consideration for attempting to fit an idea into another mold, that said it does lend where your influence of this comes from but it's hardly necessary. I've a considerable background in archery and find matters to the contrary in the cRPG but I'm able to delineate it from my RL experiences.

Back to the build, there should be an absolute ceiling to the amount of AC and AB imposed / boon of 6 - 8 between the build and it's opposition.

Aspect of Sorrow wrote:Anecdotal dissertations is clutter. The history lesson is nice but not a basis of consideration for attempting to fit an idea into another mold, that said it does lend where your influence of this comes from but it's hardly necessary. I've a considerable background in archery and find matters to the contrary in the cRPG but I'm able to delineate it from my RL experiences.

As an aside, it looks like DnD finally fixed a lot of the weight issues in 5th Ed. Bastard Sword was merged with longsword, with 1d8 damage 1h, 1d10 damage 2h (appropriate since Bastard Sword correctly refers to the shorter longsword variants, anyway) and the weights on the longsword and greatsword were dropped to 3 and 6lbs respectfully.

Back to the build, there should be an absolute ceiling to the amount of AC and AB imposed / boon of 6 - 8 between the build and it's opposition.

Can you clarify? Do you mean that the AB bonus for MotLS should cap at no more than 8, and the penalties imposed by its abilities should do the same?

Ambaryerno wrote:

Aspect of Sorrow wrote:Anecdotal dissertations is clutter. The history lesson is nice but not a basis of consideration for attempting to fit an idea into another mold, that said it does lend where your influence of this comes from but it's hardly necessary. I've a considerable background in archery and find matters to the contrary in the cRPG but I'm able to delineate it from my RL experiences.

As an aside, it looks like DnD finally fixed a lot of the weight issues in 5th Ed. Bastard Sword was merged with longsword, with 1d8 damage 1h, 1d10 damage 2h (appropriate since Bastard Sword correctly refers to the shorter longsword variants, anyway) and the weights on the longsword and greatsword were dropped to 3 and 6lbs respectfully.

Back to the build, there should be an absolute ceiling to the amount of AC and AB imposed / boon of 6 - 8 between the build and it's opposition.

Can you clarify? Do you mean that the AB bonus for MotLS should cap at no more than 8, and the penalties imposed by its abilities should do the same?

Could we not change those weights at least to be as described in NWN2? Wouldn't really affect balance, but it'd feel more decent at the very least.

Hoihe wrote:Could we not change those weights at least to be as described in NWN2? Wouldn't really affect balance, but it'd feel more decent at the very least.

One of my characters can carry something like 4160+ fantasy units of weight. I guess it is how you should treat those weights, as fantasy units, which are not really tied into real life units weights even if they share the same name. After all, before the metric system, everyone in the world used their own weights and what not.

Ambaryerno wrote:

Aspect of Sorrow wrote:Back to the build, there should be an absolute ceiling to the amount of AC and AB imposed / boon of 6 - 8 between the build and it's opposition.

Can you clarify? Do you mean that the AB bonus for MotLS should cap at no more than 8, and the penalties imposed by its abilities should do the same?

A single class fighter can currently get +4 AB from Epic Weapon Focus, +2 from Weapon Mastery, +1 from Weapon Supremacy, and +1 from Epic Prowess, for a total of +8 AB, or +6 if you consider what other builds can also get.

What our fighter doesn't get is a way to reduce the AC of the opponent for that we should look towards a single class bard:
They have +5 AB from Inspire Courage, and +6 with that custom spell they got. Now, with Perform Skill of 100 and caster level of 30, a Curse Song can reduce an opponent's AC by 7. (AC reduction 5 is more likely due to scarcity of +perform items.)

Thus, together, our Bard could gain '+13' to hit a target. The abilitity to increase your own AB and to lower the target's AC are cumulative. In fact, the ability to lower opponent's AC is basically the exact same thing as increasing your own AB.


Edit:
If you use the old appearance changer, you might agree that some of the 'Shortsword' appearances actually have 'Longsword' models. I would just make use of such a model, use Weapon Finesse, etc.

Comments Only wrote: Thus, together, our Bard could gain '+13' to hit a target. The abilitity to increase your own AB and to lower the target's AC are cumulative. In fact, the ability to lower opponent's AC is basically the exact same thing as increasing your own AB.

That's what I was looking for clarification on; are the AB bonuses and target AC penalties independent or cumulative.

Looking at the class as-written:

Potential AB Bonus +9:

+3 measured Blows
+6 Scholar of Arms
+1 Epic Precision

This puts it on par with a Fighter/WM

Excluding Master of Arms, the potential opponent AC debuff is -4:

-2 Disabling Blow
-2 Relentless Barrage

This would overall put it on par with the Bard example you cited above, which I think would be reasonable, given the relatively short duration (since both are Full Round Actions, you'd have a maximum 5 rounds of the full debuff at Level 30 IF both hit).

Knowing this, I can see where Master of Arms could be unbalancing as-written. However in practice it's possible you'd never see the max potential debuff (DB and RB both have the same duration of effect, and both are full round actions, so one will always end before the other). The most you'd get IF the MotLS scores a hit every round during Vor is -12, and only for two rounds (-2 DB, -10 RB in round 5, and -12 RB in round 6). You COULD max it by executing Vor first, which would overlap round 6 of Vor with Round 5 of DB, however since DB is a Fort save rather than to-hit, it's of greater benefit to trigger that first since a successful DB will make it more likely to land the hit with Vor.

Master of Arms can certainly be reviewed and tweaked, but it may be less unbalancing than it looks on paper.

Bard has medium BAB progression.

Comments Only wrote:Bard has medium BAB progression.

As a counterpoint, Bard is also a supreme utility class when you factor in abilities like Song/Hymn of Requiem, rather high skill points, and variety of skills. MotLS would pretty much be able to do one thing well; hit one enemy a whole heckuva lot.

And as for this PRC, I cannot help the feeling that you can get most of what you want with just a Swashbuckler 20/Duelist 10 build that makes use of a Shortsword with an ingame Longsword weapon model. (From the old appearence changer.)

Comments Only wrote:And as for this PRC, I cannot help the feeling that you can get most of what you want with just a Swashbuckler 20/Duelist 10 build that makes use of a Shortsword with an ingame Longsword weapon model. (From the old appearence changer.)

First, it's not a PrC. It's a base class with a full progression.

Second, that's just a visual cheat. And not a good one, either, since the short sword wouldn't be wielded 2H.

Third, the only similarities is that both are DEX-focused. Otherwise there's very little in the way of overlap (aside from adding Insightful Strike in the last couple revisions, which I'm inclined to remove again since combined with Combat Insight that may be too much of a damage buff considering the high AB buff).

Then you could go for Swashbuckler 30, take the custom combat feats we have on this server. From Combat Strike to the custom combat modes. You could even play as gnome or halfling, and then you can two-hand that shortsword, even use it with Power Attack, while using it with Weapon Finesse.

I just feel that it would be far simpler to add a feat called 'Greater Weapon Finesse' - something that acts like 'Intuitive Strike' and requires Weapon Finesse - to allow you to use Dexterity modifier for AB with larger weapons. It wouldn't stack with that Insightful Attack, or Canny Defense, for example... (Or those could be allowed, but it not allowing should make it easier to script, you just copy and paste the Intuitive Strike code and make adjustments.)

But you could make that dexterity based Greatsword Swinging whatever. Then you would just combine the other feats PRCs to get what you want.

And it's still just a workaround and NOT what this class is intended to be. So no, "just do X with Y" isn't a valid option.

What is wrong with workarounds? For example, Dervish, is a good PRC for a savage orc barbarian. You just go for chainshirt, and just use the hide/chain armor appearance.

Comments Only wrote:What is wrong with workarounds? For example, Dervish, is a good PRC for a savage orc barbarian. You just go for chainshirt, and just use the hide/chain armor appearance.

Because if you'd actually read what the class is trying to do, you'd realize that combination doesn't accomplish it.

I'm filing this away as "Unconstructive." If you've got something constructive to suggest on how to improve/balance the class, by all means post away. If not, thank you, come again.