Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.

[dzidek1983]

The question was directed to you not your character. Why do You need it?

You might as well be asking why I need to play this game!!

Hah I knew this would be hard to answer.

I just wish we would just leave the magic to wizards. Please lets not demand that each character can do everything by himself. This is not the best way to run this server. Classes need to have weaknesses.

[chad878262]

I just wish we would just leave the magic to wizards. Please lets not demand that each character can do everything by himself. This is not the best way to run this server. Classes need to have weaknesses.

End of the day, players want a way to be able to solo content. While this is not as prevalent as it was before the change to make chests spawn individual loot rather than one loot / 15 minutes it is still a fairly popular style of play. Whether it is for the sport of trying to solo bosses or, more than likely for the chance at a RIG item from the bosses, skeletons and boxes along the way the point is that soloing content is a thing. However, most of the end game content that gives out decent rewards requires certain protections which non-casters cannot achieve. The issue is that there are many builds (pretty much any caster) that can do everything by himself, which leaves most melee non-caster types feeling quite inadequate and less fun (for some players) to play.

[Sun Wukong]

The question was directed to you not your character. Why do You need it?

I knew this would be hard to answer.

No, Dzidek, it is an easy thing answer, because it was already answered.

Steve needs it so that he can role-play his own character appropriately to his own personal sensibilities.

I just wish we would just leave the magic to wizards. Please lets not demand that each character can do everything by himself. This is not the best way to run this server. Classes need to have weaknesses.

We are not playing rock paper and scissors. We are playing a game of D&D. A game with multitude of different weaknesses and similarly ways to overcome them. A game where you can do everything by yourself.

[mrm3ntalist]

There were discussions about uping the CL of potions when the Master Alchemist PRC was implemented. It was shot down. Elixirs were implemented instead. We dont want to go back to the pre dispel fix era where characters could buff to godmode with undispellable umd.

Thats the Dispel fix for you.

[Steve]

There were discussions about uping the CL of potions when the Master Alchemist PRC was implemented. It was shot down. Elixirs were implemented instead. We dont want to go back to the pre dispel fix era where characters could buff to godmode with undispellable umd.

Thats the Dispel fix for you.

Okay, sorry, I was unaware that the Master Alchemist makes Elixirs.

So, in a nutshell, I'm advocating for Elixirs and Scrolls to be Level capped at 25. Though and since potions/elixirs are consumable without UMD chance/failure, possible keep their crafting at substantially higher than scrolls. Or...assign to potions a random failure (as in, the elixir magic fades over time).

*waits for the flying tomatoes*

[chad878262]

Elixirs have there own potential penalties, especially if you take more than 1 or two at a time...

When imbibing elixirs toxic effects may occur. These vary depending on the level of toxicity and previous potions imbibed. The more toxic, the harsher the effect. If this occurs in combat it may severely incapacitate you, leading to death. In most cases you will be able to safely imbibe two elixirs. You will however need to consult with your local master alchemist if this is safe or will likely lead to trouble. Some elixirs don't combine well with others...

[Steve]

Elixirs have there own potential penalties, especially if you take more than 1 or two at a time...

When imbibing elixirs toxic effects may occur. These vary depending on the level of toxicity and previous potions imbibed. The more toxic, the harsher the effect. If this occurs in combat it may severely incapacitate you, leading to death. In most cases you will be able to safely imbibe two elixirs. You will however need to consult with your local master alchemist if this is safe or will likely lead to trouble. Some elixirs don't combine well with others...

That's fantastic! No, seriously!

[dzidek1983]

The question was directed to you not your character. Why do You need it?

I knew this would be hard to answer.

No, Dzidek, it is an easy thing answer, because it was already answered.

Steve needs it so that he can role-play his own character appropriately to his own personal sensibilities.

I just wish we would just leave the magic to wizards. Please lets not demand that each character can do everything by himself. This is not the best way to run this server. Classes need to have weaknesses.

We are not playing rock paper and scissors. We are playing a game of D&D. A game with multitude of different weaknesses and similarly ways to overcome them. A game where you can do everything by yourself.

From day one this server was all about group play and through its content forced players to do so. All the changes on the server, starting with the bug fixes, PRC modifications and the areas and monster abilities were made to support party play.

You get dispelled, have a wizard friend with you on the dungeon run, a chest hits with a breach, maybe you should take a rogue with you to disarm traps. Your spawns are to weak and last not long enough to tank? well you need a fighter. Undead are giving you problems, well maybe a mass death ward from a cleric would help. You just want to cast this all by yourself to get to that last chest in the dungeon. And now you can, but you cant do it as good as those casters which is GOOD.

Please dont you think after like 8 years we - as we i mean other long term players - dont see such topics as i need more power to solo the content??? You cant solo it, its made so you cant solo it... or you shouldnt be able too solo it.

I know some builds probably can solo most of it. But dont expect the developers to make every build able to solo it. Either but demanding higher CL on the UMD or by making it cheaper. Because it leads to the same goal. I am buffed all the time.

[Steve]

A cleric can solo the server content. A bard can solo the server content. A fighter cannot, nor a swashbuckler. What is the underlying difference between the cans and cannots?

The server currently supports CL 30 elixirs, that have a possible detriment—toxicity from overuse. Why not equal with scrolls? There has been no definite answer given, just opinion.

I personally advocate no consumables above CL 25. I think the reasons there are obvious, and along the lines of what Diz says. Is this idea even being considered, by Staff?

Do I need to let the topic linger for another few months because of disinterest in making a change, or even, giving a final decision on the request?

[Face]

Cant say i like this.
Let fighters be fighters and wizards be wizards as its alot of fun to buff your palls and cc some enemys now and then and if you come at a monster or boss with dispells its a epic to save your fighters with counter spells.

[dzidek1983]

We cant make all the classes be on the same power level. It's impossible. Some are just better then others.

[Steve]

We cant make all the classes be on the same power level. It's impossible. Some are just better then others.

Personally, is like to see it more along the lines of every Class has a strength and a weakness. Thus, grouping is the ONLY way to overcome the majority of obstacles/challenges. That is the general umbrella I think from.

Does this mean certain classes, those that are better and achieve success where others fail, need to be tailored down? Not my call for BGTSCC.

But what seems to be possible, is providing a percentage-to-be-equal, but not perfectly equal. Essentially, overlap, to cover gaps.

Don't get me wrong, I believe I near equal success and failure, or probably a 70/30 split (cause this game should be fun! ).

Thanks, Endelyon, for taking some of your time to investigate the technical aspects of this. Cheers.

[Endelyon]

I looked into this yesterday or the day before. I THINK it could be done for scrolls pretty easily I think and is currently artificially capped at CL15. I wouldn't be opposed to raising this to CL25 (or even at least CL20) at appropriate costs since it does definitely promote crafting RP, but there may be balance implications I'm not foreseeing.

After speaking to Valefort I also think it will be relatively easy now to make it so that custom spells can be crafted on scrolls with a single 2DA entry for each one.

On the other hand expanding wands and potions to more spells and more CLs would be very difficult at the moment since it would require hundreds (or even thousands) of tedious 2da entries for each possible spell and CL combination there is. I don't think there's any developer interested in going through this slog, and I wouldn't want to do it myself so I don't blame them.

At the very least I do want to add the custom spells onto scrolls so that wizards can craft these and teach them to other wizards, and again I don't foresee any problem with the CL increase but nothing is guaranteed yet.

[dzidek1983]

If you upgrade the weaker classes the next step will be making the server harder. So eventually we go to a place where the stronger classes are weaker then now and the weaker classes are the same.

F.ex. we make the UMD change... shortly after there is a huge chance the dispell rate in areas will increase...

[Sun Wukong]

From day one this server was all about group play and through its content forced players to do so. All the changes on the server, starting with the bug fixes, PRC modifications and the areas and monster abilities were made to support party play.

Oh, never let anyone tell you cannot crack a joke! But that aside, there was actually a rather long period on this server's history when group play was basically detrimental your leveling speed. You would get next to no experience for it, hence the multitude of past threads to increase the party experience. If a goblin gave 50 points of experience, it was split evenly to all party members. Two part members? 25 exp each. Five party members? 10 exp each. Today, if a lone character gets that 50 points of experience, then depending on the size of the part you can expect to get something like 28-48 points of experience.

As for the server content, no, you are not exactly forced to team up because of it. Perhaps it is just me, because I got used to doing it many years ago, but you can get from level 1 to level 30 all on your own without a single helping hand from anyone else. I mean, when you know how to build and you've been on this server for far too long, you kind of know what to build. What flaws certain character choices will impose, and how to overcome them.

As for class changes, ability changes, etc. It would more honest to say that whatever lies at the bottom of the barrel will eventually get a buff here. None of these changes actually promote party play, because weaker characters become stronger and therefore less reliant on others to grind.

You get dispelled, have a wizard friend with you on the dungeon run, a chest hits with a breach, maybe you should take a rogue with you to disarm traps. Your spawns are to weak and last not long enough to tank? well you need a fighter. Undead are giving you problems, well maybe a mass death ward from a cleric would help. You just want to cast this all by yourself to get to that last chest in the dungeon. And now you can, but you cant do it as good as those casters which is GOOD.

Oh, never change, never change. (Perhaps I am just horribly pessimistic and find your optimism humorous. )

But honestly, you do not have to try and persuade one 'those' wizards to leave a campfire. You just need to build based abilities that will not be dispelled. As for trying to find a rogue to help you out with traps, well, if you have ever looked at the Character Builds sub forum Evasion for Expose Weakness is not the only reason why people take 3 levels of Rogue. If your summons are too weak, you could try using spells like Glass Doppelganger, Shadow Simulacrum, or Dominate Monster, or just go by the far more common route and just build for more AC. They actually added a new elven Gish PRC just for that. As for undead giving you troubles, well, 'Fear Immunity' along with 'Steadfast Determination' tends to take care most of those, you can acquire 'Fear Immunity' from 1 base class and 3 PRC classes, and just feats for Steadfast. Thus, if you build right, you can get to the last chest of a dungeon without needing a single potion, wand, or scroll, or even a spell from a dedicated spellcaster. You can do it all without anyone else.

Please dont you think after like 8 years we - as we i mean other long term players - dont see such topics as i need more power to solo the content??? You cant solo it, its made so you cant solo it... or you shouldnt be able too solo it.

After like what 8 or more years on this server, I have remained rather consistent on how I do not think anyone needs to use UMD on this server. However, I do understand that UMD is a part of D&D, there are people who actually want to spend their coin on it - for whatever reason - but apart from a handful of wands it is not really worth it. I am someone who is reluctant to even crossclass into UMD to get past class/race/Alignment restrictions found on some items - and currently I think UMD is more rubbish than it should be.

I know some builds probably can solo most of it. But dont expect the developers to make every build able to solo it. Either but demanding higher CL on the UMD or by making it cheaper. Because it leads to the same goal. I am buffed all the time.

You can make many builds that can solo most of it, or whatever the players want to solo. But as for UMD to make use of it, you need to map out areas and figure out what dispels and what does not. Then you need to spend hours grinding chests just to have enough gold for a single wand, and the more wands you need, the more hours you need to grind. Thus, when you finally do have your set of wands, well, you need to continue grinding in order to be able to afford the replacement wands in the future. Thus, asking for increase in caster levels tied to UMD skill - or just lower costs with consumable crafting - will have but one out come: Characters and builds that currently cannot do much would be aided by either change to UMD consumables. As for builds that already can do many things, they still can do many things, and the UMD doesn't really improve them that much.