Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

But if you play a 2-hander with a x3 weapon + keen, crits will make dmg respectable (where applicable).

Steve wrote:Okay, I have a question: do people that play gishes actually cast spells when they are in combat? My assumption is a gish simply buffs to high heaven and then blows through their enemies...but maybe others have mastered some spell slinging as well, and thus NEED Autostill?!?

I have to say, that just arcane buffing up to high heaven and point and clicking who you hit is rather boring, which due to feat starving requirements of the gish, don't offer you many feats to put in something flavorful in terms of fighter mechanics. The flavor will have to come from spells. You want to switch it up and be prepared for a few things with a spell tossed here and there. Sometimes soften enemies up by numbers or just one big baddy. Sometimes you get dispelled midfight, and you have to make sure you stay in the fight and get the ward back up. And due to the fact nwn2 Defensive Casting can't be when using power attack or combat expertise, you still get hit by Attacks of Opportunity. You don't want to be surrounded and provoke them for every creature near you. I've been on the receiving end of those.

Sometimes you are a long way in between possibilities to rest or switch armors. Sometimes you prepare spells to help out your group. Sometimes your spells need to be prepared for a roleplay scenario.

This idea of an arcane gish build only being a self buffing mage to fight is a bland concept.

You know Eldritch Knight is a pretty filler class, blandish overal compared to some fightermage classtypes, but it would be so much better on its own if Verbal spells didn't have arcane spell failure as they shouldn't have, and do have now.

Some spells that are verbal only.
0-level: flare, light

1st-level: feather fall, hold portal, true strike, ventriloquism

2nd-level: blindness/deafness, blur, darkness, knock

3rd-level: displacement, suggestion, tongues

4th-level: dimension door, lesser geas, shout

5th-level: contact other plane, teleport

6th-level: mass charm monster, geas/quest, mass suggestion

7th-level: Otto's irresistible dance, phase door, power word blind, teleport other, greater teleport

8th-level: power word stun

9th-level: Mordenkainen's disjunction, power word kill, prismatic sphere, teleportation circle, time stop, wail of the banshee, wish

Steve wrote:Okay, I have a question: do people that play gishes actually cast spells when they are in combat? My assumption is a gish simply buffs to high heaven and then blows through their enemies...but maybe others have mastered some spell slinging as well, and thus NEED Autostill?!?

You cant blow through enemies unfortunately with a gish. Fighter classes can (WM etc), divine, warlock, I've personally seen them blast through the lower duergar mines, but my gish wont. Buts that ok.

I do some spell slinging, the orb spells work well as they have no save / sr, do around 70dmg. IGMS is handy obviously, and the lower one. I have a firebrand too but low save so usually only half damage, but aoe. (Gish have to prop ab stat along with casting stat, so less spells / saves)

Other than those my get out off trouble spells are still spelled (Grt Invis, Mirror image), darkness/dimension door also but they don't need stilling.

I tend to go - Safe starting zone, wear cloth armour and cast high spell level buffs + extended buffs (1 minute a level). Put on armour. Goto dungeon. Summon + buff summon with still spells. Grind. Summon wears off, keep going, use up backup still spells. Find a safe zone, cast darkness, rest, cast darkness, rebuff as above and repeat.

The above last around 40 mins (lvl 19), the summon lasts around twenty. The summon effectively makes my drow +3ecl with the lost xp, but its needed for the extra dps. Most of the time I don't repeat, just head home.

Re builds. That build you posted has Dragonslayer so effects RP choices (for me). Palemaster means being a Necro and Daggerspell Mage you have to use daggers / non -evil.

The other build chad posted (16/10/4 split) has a bab of 22. A cleric version (Cleric / Hierophant / Fgt) has a bab of 23 (I think?), has all the Hphant bonuses, about 80hp more and can cast with armour + shield. It's free to pick RP / alignment (god) / weapon. The problem is the high bab EK is based on low bab casters, so its bab advantage is lost.

I just think if the EK can be reworked into something that is attractive (and I don't mean cl), it would solve a lot of gish players problems, without forcing RP / playstyle / alignment / weapon choices onto the player.

Again, this is not about dispel issues, no CL bonuses. Just martial bonuses, to give EK some flavour and advantage.

BigJ

Like was mentioned, the PnP version of EK gets a bonus feat from the Fighter feat list at Level 1. So, adding that would be a bonus!

So what is missing? Another 9/10 CL PrC? Better gaming returns on CL 25? Less Dispels from mobs/bosses?

In my humble opinion , the EK is very useful as is, and would just get better if brought to PnP standards.

So maybe looking for an interesting D&D PrC that could be implemented would be the best option?

Steve wrote:Like was mentioned, the PnP version of EK gets a bonus feat from the Fighter feat list at Level 1. So, adding that would be a bonus!

So what is missing? Another 9/10 CL PrC? Better gaming returns on CL 25? Less Dispels from mobs/bosses?

In my humble opinion , the EK is very useful as is, and would just get better if brought to PnP standards.

So maybe looking for an interesting D&D PrC that could be implemented would be the best option?

If the new PrC had no alignment / rp / playstyle restrictions then maybe, I just thought it would be easier to tweak what already exists.

CL / dispels is less of an issue, that just comes down to how you play / prepare.

An EK with archmage / Hieophant type feat choices that relate to a ftr / mage, that just sounded cool to me as a suggestion. Make it so you don't have to consider the forced choices of PM / DSM / DS.

BigJ

Why not up Dragon Slayer to 7/10 or even 9/10 progression. Bring back Dragon Disciples. Maybe add a PRC or two that are arcane fighters. Maybe a Battle Mage PRC? Something that could enhance your CL like Hierophant does with Cleric/SS? However what is the purpose of curbing a PB with these might I ask? As Chambordini mentioned we still have the same PBs running around currently anyway. I believe this is because everything that is made custom here is vastly underwhelming and can not even compare to what the Original feats, PRCs and other things that were put in and many of the things here that were created with that idea in mind were nerfed badly from Kaedrin's to BG thereby making them not a great choice for multi classing. Why not actually make some PRCs that put other style builds on the level with a FvS? With a Str Bard? With a Dragon Druid? With a Full Monk? Why not have every class have some build that is optimal and then tiers of styles below that? What is wrong with that? What is wrong with designing with the power of the game already in mind? I am not saying EVERY build should be as powerful as a FvS or whatever PB is being used. I am saying that every style of a balanced party should have tiers of builds from PB to Mechanical mayhem RP builds who need peeps to survive at level 1-30 all the time. All I am saying is that QC could lighten up a bit and allow some things to move forward that are a bit more powerful and actually give options to do what some of the prototypical PBs do now that are the same old hat. We have two options remove the classes and ban PBs all together or we can start building variety at that level to give others more choices and to possibly get parties of balance even at the PB level. This would allow in my mind for DM events catering to their power more where they never cause imbalance issues for the party because there could be a PB Rogue, PB Healer, PB Arcane Fighter. If that makes any sense? Instead of limiting we could instead open up options nurture true creativity by giving the players more options to be able to do the same things that the prototypical PBs do. Yeah we will have more PBs running around but at least they would be different ones of PBs rather than FvS, FvS, Cle, Cle, Bard........That is just my opinion though I am of the ideals to create more options up to the power levels set by the top measuring stick builds rather than just tolerate them and try to create a bunch of subpar mediocre builds for options that will rarely get used. Add classes like the Forest Master but don't curb power on it since it is comparable to a FvS in power for Forest casters now we get a melee Druid or Ranger on par with PBs and has some bad arse magic to go with it. Make a Battle Mage PRC that ups a Arcane gish power to compare to a FvS now you get a arcanist that can rock the world too. Make a healer PRC that can heal a party of 4 while being blasted by DM Wagner mobs.....We now get a true healer that will be used for once. Make a rogue PRC with High BAB that is easy to qual and gives the same feats as Rogue so we can qual Epic Dodge while getting nasty BAB that can actually hit often and hard as Rogues suffer from BAB issues.

Calodan wrote:Make a Battle Mage PRC that ups a Arcane gish power to compare to a FvS now you get a arcanist that can rock the world too.

Sorry to just clip out this bit, but I think it states, in a nutshell, what is being asked for.

And...if that is what is being asked for, then I, personally, think "we" have a problem.

The supposed need for every Character to have a build option to "rock the world," just adds more to the over powered pot, and does not really add variety—if you're asking for 1 addition, to what is described as a limited pot of option, then...does 1 more really establish variety?!?

Okay, okay...this discussion is getting off mark, and the same complaint is coming up, which takes away from the OP.

First, everyone should review the Eldritch Knight PrC as described here. Then, see what THIS PrC about...and what it excels at and what it doesn't.

Then, consider asking for things that mitigate what it doesn't excel at, like: Twilight Armor, or the option to take Spellcasting (CL) I, II, III in Epic Feat Slots no matter if you have Archmage or Hierophant, or ask for considering to develop the Warmage, or how about the Armored Warmage feat, so Light armor provides no spell failure (like Bard/Warlock).

Autostill 0–9 is one option, and it requires heavy investment. Nothing wrong with that! Eldritch Knight is very useful, as it is currently.

Does QC think that BGTSCC needs an Arcane equivalent of a Favored Soul? And the QC answer is....?

Steve wrote:Does QC think that BGTSCC needs an Arcane equivalent of a Favored Soul? And the QC answer is....?

Its not about what QC thinks, what steve thinks, what calodan thinks, what maecius thinks, what X thinks. They all think and most times they all think in a unique way. So, no matter what gets done, there will always be some to complain there will always be some that like it. Thats the only standard. Whenever I post something about future changes i think of that and smile thinking of some Johnny Cash lyrics

I'll tell you no and you gonna ask me why, why, why?
When I remind you of all of this, you'll cry, cry, cry.

mrm3ntalist wrote:Its not about what QC thinks,

Are you being sour?!?

Actually, if it isn't what QC thinks, then what is QC good for? I ask this totally seriously, despite your above comment that says nothing about the Thread/OP except that you are displeased? Or am I wrong?

Because:

Quality Control: The Quality Control team (or "QC") is in charge of testing new content for balance and bugs; for reporting bugs with existing, released content; and for troubleshooting exploits and other problems. They play an important role in ensuring that developers produce content that is consistent with the server's existing content and fair, and hold developers accountable for what is released. Ideally, nothing should be released live without a nod from QC.

I underlined what I think QC should be thinking about, as it is advertised. Tell me if I'm wrong, if I am wrong. And I'll shut up!

mrm3ntalist wrote:

Steve wrote:Does QC think that BGTSCC needs an Arcane equivalent of a Favored Soul? And the QC answer is....?

Its not about what QC thinks, what steve thinks, what calodan thinks, what maecius thinks, what X thinks. They all think and most times they all think in a unique way. So, no matter what gets done, there will always be some to complain there will always be some that like it. Thats the only standard. Whenever I post something about future changes i think of that and smile thinking of some Johnny Cash lyrics

I'll tell you no and you gonna ask me why, why, why?
When I remind you of all of this, you'll cry, cry, cry.

I agree we all think differently and that is okay! I still love you all even if I am a disgruntled grumpy veteran who has zero true social skills that do not involve saying hello with explosives.......

fooled around with some gish builds. admittedly i am not a fantanstic builder, but i watched this thread and tried to remedy some of the complaints of gish building. tell me what i missed. i did not use EK on purpose. could add it but fear it would sour the CL. too much.. kind of went AC/Def.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?261017

edit. really on the fence about taking power attack.

aaron22 wrote:fooled around with some gish builds. admittedly i am not a fantanstic builder, but i watched this thread and tried to remedy some of the complaints of gish building. tell me what i missed. i did not use EK on purpose. could add it but fear it would sour the CL. too much.. kind of went AC/Def.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?261017

Not really a true GISH with only 4 attacks in a round. To me a GISH is a hybrid fighter/caster. Weighing in on the side of fighter more. You really need at least 5 attacks in a round to be effective in close combat at all. They are supposed to in my mind be able to fight close quarters and use the occasional melee touch attack spell or so while fighting to do greater damage as they fight but their one true form is being a magically warded fighter only on the arcane side of it.

EDIT: Which is exactly what the issue is being discussed. Getting BAB with CL as well to make a true GISH fighter that is viable on the server in most if not all areas.

Calodan wrote:
Not really a true GISH with only 4 attacks in a round. To me a GISH is a hybrid fighter/caster. Weighing in on the side of fighter more. You really need at least 5 attacks in a round to be effective in close combat at all. They are supposed to in my mind be able to fight close quarters and use the occasional melee touch attack spell or so while fighting to do greater damage as they fight but their one true form is being a magically warded fighter only on the arcane side of it.

i would need a BAB of >20 for 5?