thought of the day on tanks

[Stonebar]

The old argument that casters were always more powerful in PnP bothers me to no end. IC, sometimes RL Hours could go between battles in PnP, spells could not be cast and forget, they had to be managed, aka balance (of sorts). That is why super buffers are more powerful in Nwn2. So yes, balance is a factor when it's not just 5 people with their own DM eating Cheetos looking at Graff paper.

That said I do not want to see a ton of immunity items, or epic level magic items (+5 - +8) like some servers use. BUT I think some spells/abilities need to be looked into long long before "Tanks" and other melees lose, or casters gain anything. There has been a focus on making melee non casters better, lets not mess up and take a step backward.

ps: l for one get a warm fuzzy feeling every time I see graff paper

[AlwaysSummer Day]

I just want a reason to make tanky non caster builds fun to play and less punishing.

Maybe let NPC mobs have a chance of successfully dispelling pure casters like they do in tabletop? That way the pure warriors will at least have an HP advantage if not DPS or saves.

[hksturbo]

Any nerf is a giant step backwards always is . In pnp casters are stronger than fighters at the top lvl . In nwn2 it's the same thing . Whining that your sub par fighter can t tank as well as a power built wizard is odd and I can't belive I'm listening to this . A true tank isn't a fighter that's the game wow not d and d . We have enough classes and spells that have been gimped and are now useless. The more you nerf the more other servers and real pen and paper are better than us just stop it . You want a tank make one but stop asking oh nerf the power built wizard or cleric because he's stronger than my fighter absolutely horrible. Fighters already have the best dps by far now they should have the best ac as well this is not world of war craft . Since the beginning of d and d wizards, clerics etc have been by far more powerful than warriors after lvl 7 way it always had been and should be. Should we just get rid of all casters becuase they have magic ? You want a caster tank make one real simple

[metaquad4]

viewtopic.php?f=446&t=57419

Enable aggro management. Save the tank.

Also, as a side-note, bear warriors would make amazing tanks and off-hand DPS. Save for the fact that you can't use taunt in them. If this idea goes through, let bear warriors use taunt in bear form, in addition to KD and charge.

[Rask]

The whole "Casters are more powerful than non casters in pnp" is factually inaccurate, depending on your DM at least.

It's just that on this server a lot of classes that would bring them more on par, got nerfed into the dirt. Thing's like Warrior of Darkness, having its spell resistance removed (Yet monks get theirs?) and having their weapon enhancement nerfed made the class kinda crap, when it would have otherwise been a viable anti-magic prestige class.

Also, in PNP, there are a lot of items that give fighters a leg-up and bring them more in line with casters power in a group. Better enhancements on weapons and armour. I mean a Wizard can cast a spell to give their armour and weapon +5, but a fither can't, and yet we aren't allowed to have +5 EB items, which would only benefit the already under powered fighter classes. Maybe some +4 Str/con items as well (brings fighters in line with cats grace/bull str.) . Weapons with 1d8 or higher elemental damage buffs. All these are things that make PNP fighters more balanced which we do not have on the server. Or even more items that allow fighters to cast a few buffs per day that don't cost a small fortune.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Ya I am going to say that I play a wizard not a warrior and it is a bit childish to call an opposing opinion "whining" hksturbo. Also the problem is that fighters have A LOT drawbacks. Compare the high DPS build

Fighter/WM/FB will have low will, low reflex, high fortitude saves. They require using wands, potions and scrolls in order to get enough durability to survive a long fight which means they bleed gold. They can solo very few things without a SD dip for HiPS which would make them a sneak not a warrior.

A Favored Soul/cleric has amongst the highest DPS on the server, amongst the highest AC, amongst the highest saves, full spellcasting progression, evasion, 30 CL (no dispells!) and slippery mind. They can solo anything short of the ancient dragon. No drawbacks at all.

[hksturbo]

Ok not whining(im sorry) but you can make a fs . On all servers fs are stronger than most warriors . As far as p and p goes yes there alot stronger because none of those magic items exist without the mage or cleric making them . Spells like wish, among others theres nothing a warrior can ever do that is that potent . Only with house rules can the warrior be equal to the caster . Ya play exactly by the books and casters blow melee out of the water at high levels it's not even close if your going by the books .
Fs ,bard and mages also have draw backs to, nerfing or gimping them only hurts the server . I don't see them critting 1 to 3 times a round for 110 to 300 each time and only one boss is uncritable . Fs do not have the best ac when they are dmg dealers or they would be the best white dragon tanks there not . Any nerf done is only stepping backwards putting us far behind others servers and modules . Only removing casters would even the playing field on low magic world's the warrior is gonna suffer . Now go to a plus 12 item world like trinity or play wow sure the warrior is even or ahead that's not here thank god . Life is not even and equal nor should be every class that would just be boring . Beefing up a few warrior prcs would be ok but taking away from any already existing class is only making things worse .

[AlwaysSummer Day]

I totally disagree. First off you can go ahead and cast wish and see what the DM says. I never had a player do it but I have to admit it wouldn't take me long to come up with some horrible fate for a mage that got too greedy.

Secondly I favor the "nerf one instead of buff one hundred" approach since it requires far less work and the result is just as fun. Just make all future favored souls take a minimum of 5 levels of cleric/BG/Pally if they want EDM. They lose their 30 CL and suddenly have a tradeoff. No current Favored Souls are affected at all. Chances are (fill in the name!) will threaten to stop playing again but who cares. When new spells come out the old style of Favored souls will slowly be RCRed. It is a lot easier then buffing 100 other classes. Nothing is taken away (no spells lost, no abilities lost etc.) so that argument is purely a matter of people not wanting to face a challenge.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

[hksturbo]

So take away from other because your unhappy hmmm seems very very unfair . Let's just remove magic all together give warriors plus 12 items be like trinity . Or you can make the class your so hell bent on ruining or jealous of the fs . That's the great thing about nwn you can make the class that so op . Nerfing anything only puts you behind other servers and real pen and paper . We already have more classes gimped than all other nwn2 servers combined that are active do we really need to go farther to accommodate a world of war craft style . Nerfing more moves us backwards again let's move forward . You don't like fs don't play them . What happens when people decide they hate fighters we gonna remove or gimp them for fairness ? I hear no mention of the druid dragon who can pack a 65 ac have 800 hp and cast 9th lvls spells .

[WhatsInTheBox]

I don't like nerfing either but all you REALLY gotta do to make other builds be comparable in terms of strength to caster builds is undo the bug fix for wand and scroll caster levels... let it be at character level for the dispel check. Or you can go through and buff all the melee non caster classes like giving dervish their 4 AC back from defensive parry at level 7 while fighting in expertise and buffing barbarians further, etc etc.

[Invoker]

Fighter/WM/FB will have low will, low reflex, high fortitude saves. They require using wands, potions and scrolls in order to get enough durability to survive a long fight which means they bleed gold. They can solo very few things without a SD dip for HiPS which would make them a sneak not a warrior.

I would respectfully ask this kind of misinformation campaigns to be stopped.

No serious Fighter/WM/FB adds SD (19 DEX?!?! Lolwut?!?! For what, stealth in heavy armor and all equipment tied to hide/ms?! Joke build.). They require equipment that can be fully bought just farming the right areas (they don't bleed gold, they just need a good player to actually gain gold. Just like Rogues.). They also don't have low Will, if you build properly. If you think they can't solo anything, then you've never seen proper ones in action.

Furthermore, WM/FB types are some of the best characters for a 2-man team.

A Favored Soul/cleric has amongst the highest DPS on the server, amongst the highest AC, amongst the highest saves, full spellcasting progression, evasion, 30 CL (no dispells!) and slippery mind. They can solo anything short of the ancient dragon. No drawbacks at all.

Slippery mind is trash. Totally useless, especially when you can be immune to mind effects with low circle spells for...like...forever. The Favored Soul/Cleric you describe is strictly of Istishia, otherwise you need another dip to pick up Evasion/EW (and then you lose CL). Even THAT Favored Soul performs at "Tier1" level, with Warlocks, Monks, DDs, Sorcerers, Wizards, Druids, Bards, Clerics...and more.

These...inaccuracies on the power level of classes and characters with respect to the PvE environment and DM events need to stop. They get in the way of this community's growth.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Typically it boiled down to the playstyle of the player than it does the build they tried to tether that to and are unwilling to adjust accordingly.

[Rask]

The thing that gets me about this server, is casters get extremely overpowered classes such as Blood Magus, and the new Bladesinger, that don't get any nerfs. Yet almost every single melee PRC that has been added has been nerfed into the pavement. Most of them are not worth taking at all. It seems very lop-sided. If they even just gave WoD back its spell resistance (You need 10 levels in that class to make it worth while with SR as well, so there is a trade off already.) it would go a long way into making a viable build that could withstand a few spells.

I just don't get why melee classes get nerfed, and the caster classes rarely ever do, when the casters already are so far ahead.

[Invoker]

The thing that gets me about this server, is casters get extremely overpowered classes such as Blood Magus, and the new Bladesinger, that don't get any nerfs. Yet almost every single melee PRC that has been added has been nerfed into the pavement. Most of them are not worth taking at all. It seems very lop-sided. If they even just gave WoD back its spell resistance (You need 10 levels in that class to make it worth while with SR as well, so there is a trade off already.) it would go a long way into making a viable build that could withstand a few spells.

I just don't get why melee classes get nerfed, and the caster classes rarely ever do, when the casters already are so far ahead.

I do not favor melee classes getting nerfed. In fact, WoD and AK (for instance) have been implemented before I even got here. My interest lies in the present, and in the future. There is nothing wrong with WoD's SR, for instance, nor with giving the classes the +dmg to weapon they originally had. But WoD IS viable, with or without those.

Blood Magus is an exceptionally powerful PrC, even though I bet few people actually realize why (in fact, there are some recent threads asking to buff it, which is obviously preposterous to anyone knowing the game intimately). But Bladesinger?!?!? Bladesinger is a perfectly balanced class. Saying BS is overly powerful, is like saying Eldritch Knight is. They're on the same power level. That's a bad example.

Also, casters being "so far ahead" is a misconception. This isn't a competitive game, it's cooperative. This isn't Street Fighter. Classes need a degree of independence to allow players to solo when they wish/need to, but the highest value lies in INTERDEPENDENCE. And in that, pure, constant DPS classes like non-casting 700+ dmg/round WM/FBs, for instance, are actually AHEAD of casters.

It's MUCH better to have a WM/FB and a caster class to complete it, rather than two casters. Light years ahead, even.

[Calodan]

Also, casters being "so far ahead" is a misconception. This isn't a competitive game, it's cooperative. This isn't Street Fighter. Classes need a degree of independence to allow players to solo when they wish/need to, but the highest value lies in INTERDEPENDENCE. And in that, pure, constant DPS classes like non-casting 700+ dmg/round WM/FBs, for instance, are actually AHEAD of casters.

It's MUCH better to have a WM/FB and a caster class to complete it, rather than two casters. Light years ahead, even

EXACTLY!!!! If people stop thinking in terms of PvP then we would be fine. However Invoker you have to see that humans are competitive right? Game being that way or not does not matter to us in the end we make everything a competition.........

I play a F/FB/WM/R. The only issue I have is the low HP and lower AC. I use scrolls for a lot of things on that build. It straight wrecks squishy things quickly. Give it a weapon that is either blunt or has Extra Melee blunt and you straight wreck things thanks to the extra dmg from FB in PA and IPA. So if you give a FB/WM some displacement with mirrors during boss fights you should be able to wreck every boss damn near. Might have a issue with the balor and Dracolich...but you can wreck every other boss I am thinking.