Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

chad878262 wrote:

Rhifox wrote:I voted for "higher levels only". I think the exp rate at early levels is absolutely fine, no issue at all. Epic levels however see a cumulative effect of vastly higher experience point demands, dungeon difficulty, and exp loss from death, while offering no greater experience gain. This has the effect of making dungeon running feel a wasted and painful prospect at epic levels, and thus encourages greater reliance on questing (which as we have established in the other thread, pushes higher level characters into zooming through lower level areas).

Higher exp values at epic levels would encourage more dungeon running at epic levels, I feel, because the reward would feel worth the risk. Presently it doesn't.

This is a great point Rhifox. The early levels feel like they have a good pace to them, but higher levels drag for long periods.

Rhifox had an excellent post. Personally, I feel that the early levels are great until Xvarts. Even Xvarts is fine around the time most people enter the area. They quickly become a mindless grind though, and from there it continues.

It doesn't matter if it is Xvarts, Giants, Trolls, or Yuan-tai... the endless non-stimulating hours of grind is very off-putting. Over the years I'm seen many friends leave because of it. I've even left a few times when the frustration levels got too high and some new game hit the market.

Isn't the problem that these areas particularly stand out in terms of XP gain .. ? Because there are a bunch of areas to play in at every level.

Valefort wrote:Isn't the problem that these areas particularly stand out in terms of XP gain .. ? Because there are a bunch of areas to play in at every level.

Which could be addressed by simply having a bank of XP, rather than going through and updating every area... Though that is another option and a good one. The Underdark, for instance has little with regard to options once you reach ~ECL 19 or higher. It's a little better when the Upperdark is not full of rats, but even then, the xvarts of the Underdark are the illithid mines and at ECL 21 they give between 13-16 XP / kill when solo. You can go to the Duergar compound, but the XP is only about 4-6 more per kill and there are dispels so if below CL25 you won't last long... It's worth it only due to the ocassional sub bosses that spawn there.

It would be nice if more area's were balanced for challenge and worthwhile XP rewards, would also be nice if more area's had the random sub-boss here and there that gives ~75-100 XP for appropriate CR parties.

The areas where people grind don't give higher XP in general, they simply have higher spawn rates. Hill Giants remain a great place to gain XP in to the ~19-21 range because even though the XP drops below 30, the spawn rates continue to make it a decent place to grind, especially if you rely on wards, since low epic areas will dispel below CL25 fairly consistently.

not all areas are "perfect" for grinding, but there does seem like there is a steady progression of difficulties and, at least on the surface, there are plenty of options to select from depending upon how your build is set up. i have made several toons through the "struggle" and each of them had a completely different route because i just tried areas and figured out what worked best for each one. i would explore and test my build against different mobs. sometimes i would get great xp other times not as much, but had to weigh the ends and the means. the server is really good. would i say no to more? heavens no, but there is plenty there.

chad878262 wrote:The areas where people grind don't give higher XP in general, they simply have higher spawn rates. Hill Giants remain a great place to gain XP in to the ~19-21 range because even though the XP drops below 30, the spawn rates continue to make it a decent place to grind, especially if you rely on wards, since low epic areas will dispel below CL25 fairly consistently.

As mentioned in other topics previously, I have a bow using ranger with giants chosen as one of the favored enemies. A single Manyshot attack flurry tends to bring down a single giant and my maxed survival skill with Track feat allows me to see exactly where the giants spawn. My buffed up animal companion is largely there to offer some company.

With this character, it would make sense to grind those hill giants even when they give just 5 experience points per kill - because at the rate in which I can put them down - they only get to spawn in one or two at a time.

But the thing is, I am not doing that. It is just not fun. I would rather go to some other area that offers little bit more challenge. Thus, I have fought against the hobgoblins that are not one of my favored enemies. I have to use healing kits, approach with care, or risk dying from a mob of hobgoblin casters or regular melee/ranger hobgoblins if my buffs run out.

Which kind of presents the current state of server: you can grind things that are very easy for you to kill - but it will be like slowly pushing an ice pick into your own brain. Or you can go about and challenge yourself, have bit of fun, and get the worse amount of experience out of it.

Edit: What are the specifics of this bank experience?

Comments Only wrote:

chad878262 wrote:The areas where people grind don't give higher XP in general, they simply have higher spawn rates. Hill Giants remain a great place to gain XP in to the ~19-21 range because even though the XP drops below 30, the spawn rates continue to make it a decent place to grind, especially if you rely on wards, since low epic areas will dispel below CL25 fairly consistently.

As mentioned in other topics previously, I have a bow using ranger with giants chosen as one of the favored enemies. A single Manyshot attack flurry tends to bring down a single giant and my maxed survival skill with Track feat allows me to see exactly where the giants spawn. My buffed up animal companion is largely there to offer some company.

With this character, it would make sense to grind those hill giants even when they give just 5 experience points per kill - because at the rate in which I can put them down - they only get to spawn in one or two at a time.

But the thing is, I am not doing that. It is just not fun. I would rather go to some other area that offers little bit more challenge. Thus, I have fought against the hobgoblins that are not one of my favored enemies. I have to use healing kits, approach with care, or risk dying from a mob of hobgoblin casters or regular melee/ranger hobgoblins if my buffs run out.

Which kind of presents the current state of server: you can grind things that are very easy for you to kill - but it will be like slowly pushing an ice pick into your own brain. Or you can go about and challenge yourself, have bit of fun, and get the worse amount of experience out of it.

This also reminds me of quest.

Yesterday I had a choice.

Do I go and pursue ICly sensible things, that ICly grant way more experience and skill progress.

Or do I go and seek OOCly inspired quests that have no reason to grant more experience than the above, yet it does.

Some 8.5k xp vs like 700.

The choice was between seeking grandmaster help in swordfighting vs getting some eggs, and defeating an orc below my CR.

Oh! Thanks Hoihe! You reminded that I have a character to level up... Time to log in for two hours to grind some of those quests. (Just need two more levels before this character of mine can actually start holding a candle on his own... So that would be around the end of next month! )

Comments Only wrote: With this character, it would make sense to grind those hill giants even when they give just 5 experience points per kill - because at the rate in which I can put them down - they only get to spawn in one or two at a time.

I think after lvl 20 grinding normal creatures is not a good way to lvl anymore.
The epic lvls are more for focusing on world bosses to lvl up at a decent rate.
Especially if you keep rp-ing in a small party while doing it. If you keep rp-ing while keeping up a decent speed moving from boss to boss, you will get the most gain xp wise.

Even 30's tend to help out with these runs as it gives them loot. So it is not that hard to get a group together.

The only trick is to learn how to fight them and finding a good path for the group to go through.
The path isn't always the same, as it depends on the kind of group you are doing this with.
A fast moving invis/stealth group will have different paths to follow than a group that has to kill everything the come across.

Also it helps meeting new people to rp with. So it's a win win.

Nachti wrote:I would rather like to see "roleplay criticals" which award 100-200 xp and occure more often at 1-20 then 21+.

I was just thinking about that. I run "pseudo DM" RP with a few in server and was watching the XP gain rate while thinking how can an RP critical or boost occur.

So, this is just where I'm at on a personal level, though I suspect it will sound familiar to many. In my opinion, there is really nothing wrong with low level content. It's low level roleplay that can be unrewarding.

It isn't intrinsically unrewarding. In fact, when the right circumstances occur, I think it's some of the best roleplay one can get as everything is new and exciting, the fear of death makes everything a bit more intense (both IC and OOC), and the building of a character's personality happens in a more realistic and organic fashion. But it requires something that is hard to find, and that is a regular playgroup.

Without a regular playgroup, somebody that you team up with on an adventure one week can be well out of your league (in terms of combat prowess) a couple weeks later. Roleplay with that character doesn't exactly die if you catch each other at a campfire, but it does change, and not really for the better.

This leads to lots of retelling of the same tale, to people unloading their character's entire past on you after knowing you for five minutes, and to the stifling of more meaningful roleplay relationships until you can keep up with them on their adventures. A revolving door of half-formed relationships doesn't make for a superb roleplay experience. Now, I'm sure several people can regale us with tales of their favorite and most influential characters that were total weaklings, that never left the campfire, etc. etc. etc.

You are a special breed. You deserve props. But most of us very much enjoy the mechanical aspects of this game. The complexity and variation are some of the things that brought me back here after 7 years of playing skyrim and the witcher and everything in between. It's why the sourcebooks are almost entirely filled with mechanical things for us to toy around with, and it's why most of us design a character with max level in mind. It's fun to realize your characters full butt-kicking (or lack thereof, depending on your purpose) potential.

Like Flasmix and others, I hate the grind. But I do enjoy high level play much more than low level play (at this point on this server). Particularly after experiencing lots of low level play over the years. I very much enjoy character vs. character interactions and combat when both characters are on a somewhat more level playing field, and as long as you're willing to torture yourself by being Questrunner2000 (should probably be my login name at this point) or by becoming Grindmaster McGee for countless unfun and uninteractive hours, that is exactly where you're going to end up. On the level playing field known as level 30. It's not a mystery. It's a foregone conclusion. It's just a matter of time, which is what I think we're all concerned about deep down. Some people think it SHOULD be work. Level 30 should be EARNED. Some think it should not be work, but fun. This is a fundamental difference and what I propose as an xp system will very quickly tell you which sort of player you are.

And here it is in a nutshell after a TLDR intro:
We decide what a reasonable time frame is for a character to go from level 1 to level 30. We divide the xp required for level 30 (ECL 0) over the number of days we decide is reasonable. It is automatically granted to you on a daily basis.
Quests do not give xp. They give gold. Mobs do not give XP, they give gold, items, and fun. DM's do not give xp (or items, for that matter, but that's another argument for another day). The only way to gain xp faster than your daily allotment is via roleplay xp.

It completely eliminates xp as a distraction from the more interesting aspects of this server.

That's the gist. Yes, a player can log in after the time frame with a level 30 character they didn't "earn." So what? They will not have had fun in the meantime. They will not have cultivated roleplay relationships. They will have terrible gear.

We would probably need to put some checks and balances in place so it doesn't get out of hand or abused in unforeseen ways (i.e. limit on number of characters in vault, or bosses you must kill to progress past certain level increments, or forcing you to level up at 20 to abide by the 3b20 rule or other clever things I haven't thought of), but I would really love to see what sort of player this would cater to. Would it be incorrigible power gamers? Or people that just want to have fun with roleplay and adventuring? A mix of both and more, all for their own reasons for preferring such a system? A separate instance of the server with these xp rules in place would make for an interesting sociological experiment if nothing else.

Egg Shen wrote: And here it is in a nutshell after a TLDR intro:
We decide what a reasonable time frame is for a character to go from level 1 to level 30. We divide the xp required for level 30 (ECL 0) over the number of days we decide is reasonable. It is automatically granted to you on a daily basis.
Quests do not give xp. They give gold. Mobs do not give XP, they give gold, items, and fun. DM's do not give xp (or items, for that matter, but that's another argument for another day). The only way to gain xp faster than your daily allotment is via roleplay xp.

It completely eliminates xp as a distraction from the more interesting aspects of this server.

That's the gist. Yes, a player can log in after the time frame with a level 30 character they didn't "earn." So what? They will not have had fun in the meantime. They will not have cultivated roleplay relationships. They will have terrible gear.

We would probably need to put some checks and balances in place so it doesn't get out of hand or abused in unforeseen ways (i.e. limit on number of characters in vault, or bosses you must kill to progress past certain level increments, or forcing you to level up at 20 to abide by the 3b20 rule or other clever things I haven't thought of), but I would really love to see what sort of player this would cater to. Would it be incorrigible power gamers? Or people that just want to have fun with roleplay and adventuring? A mix of both and more, all for their own reasons for preferring such a system? A separate instance of the server with these xp rules in place would make for an interesting sociological experiment if nothing else.

Most intriguing. I like the lateral thought happening here.

You did identify the question... why do people like the xp grind mechanics. Typically its a sense of achievement. If there's nothing beyond story making and gold/loot farming, i foresee a lot will leave rather quickly. And sometimes, those of us that enjoy a good story making session, also like the occasional bit of adventure farming to 'wind down'.

What if you used that idea but also coupled it with 'achievements's earned through scripted great feats on the server.
i.e.
Specific boss kill tokens,
Specific places found/visited in the server.
Ancient ruin riddles solved.
Specific quest completed.
So many sheep returned to farmer quest.
Fish caught (salt and fresh) etc.
Many options here.

But unsure how 'scriptable' it would be within game mechanics.


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let me also ask some open questions to the generic gathering. I'm not looking for specific answers, these are more so thought provokers.

Do people feel jealous/threatened by those that come here to play the 'repetitive adventuring' (read grinding, xp, loot farming) aspect of the game?
Do people feel jealous/threatened by those that reach level 30 in less time than it takes for your characters to get halfway?

How do these types of persons/characters negatively impact upon your personal play experiences on the server? (besides the already stated, higher level quest / chest runners in low level dungeons).


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And Rhifox...

Rhifox wrote:
I voted for "higher levels only". I think the exp rate at early levels is absolutely fine, no issue at all. Epic levels however see a cumulative effect of vastly higher experience point demands, dungeon difficulty, and exp loss from death, while offering no greater experience gain. This has the effect of making dungeon running feel a wasted and painful prospect at epic levels, and thus encourages greater reliance on questing (which as we have established in the other thread, pushes higher level characters into zooming through lower level areas).

Higher exp values at epic levels would encourage more dungeon running at epic levels, I feel, because the reward would feel worth the risk. Presently it doesn't.

This is awesome. Thankyou!

[Snip] We decide what a reasonable time frame is for a character to go from level 1 to level 30. We divide the xp required for level 30 (ECL 0) over the number of days we decide is reasonable. It is automatically granted to you on a daily basis... [Snap]

Basically, what you suggest is some kind of script that runs on the entire server vault, and takes the experience value of a character and updates it with that predetermined increment.
I suppose it would have to be done when the server is down, which might prolong the server down time for a considerable extent.

Not to mention that many could be annoyed at a possible limitation on the number of characters. After all, there is still a need for mule characters and sometimes you just want to try out a new character concept without having to axe one of your older characters - and there would be those who can easily circument such charatcer limitations and therefore gain unfair advantage over the others. Additionally, any clever builder can easily make do with just +2 or +3 equipment - something you can pull out of the consignment store for a mere pittance. (Not to mention how you could just stomp the low level dungeons for loot and that too takes care of any lack of equipment.)

What would make this system incorrigible in my opinion is how it would tear away any adventuring soul this server has. There would be no point to take on any in game challenge, because all that you get is just an empty ale stein and an experience penalty upon death. In fact, you would not even need to log in for months, and the "DnD" player inside me protests how no experience has been actually earned.

However, it would be great boon for those who just stand around the campfires and often are 'AFK' for several hours in a row to boot.

Comments Only wrote:

[Snip] We decide what a reasonable time frame is for a character to go from level 1 to level 30. We divide the xp required for level 30 (ECL 0) over the number of days we decide is reasonable. It is automatically granted to you on a daily basis... [Snap]

Basically, what you suggest is some kind of script that runs on the entire server vault, and takes the experience value of a character and updates it with that predetermined increment.
I suppose it would have to be done when the server is down, which might prolong the server down time for a considerable extent.

No, it can be done while the server is up. A single thread processing this is about a minute's worth of time, and collects a list of the opened bic (in use), informing the server the list of characters to assess and modify, run a save, and be done about it.

Well that is good to know then.

I have to say I'd like an increase in RP xp, currently playing a drow fighter/wizard in the UD and leveling through grinding is a real pain although I try to keep that at a very low amount.

A script that would award PCs for logging in sounds interesting as well.

On the topic of being jealous of faster leveling guys... No not really jealous but losing RP partners cause they just go to entirely different areas then oneself is a bit sad.

Wonder why the UD is so underpopulated... Guess the harsh leveling might be one reason.

An automated version of critical RP scripts would be cool but I have no idea how that could work without human input.