Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

matelener wrote:Extra attack from WW rage stacks with an atttack from Haste and in terms of damage dealing it shouldn't be underestimated.

No, it doesn't. Haste simply removes your AB penalty.

All in all, good changes even though I'm playing a shield abusing WW frenzy barb. I believe a simple CON to damage (1.5x for 2handing) while raging would make regular rage just as desirable, if not more than WW frenzy.

The Whistler wrote:

matelener wrote:Extra attack from WW rage stacks with an atttack from Haste and in terms of damage dealing it shouldn't be underestimated.

No, it doesn't. Haste simply removes your AB penalty.

All in all, good changes even though I'm playing a shield abusing WW frenzy barb. I believe a simple CON to damage (1.5x for 2handing) while raging would make regular rage just as desirable, if not more than WW frenzy.

Ah, okay, figured out where I got the wrong idea from: it doesn't stack with Haste spell but it does with other haste effects like Flee the Scene / Blinding Speed.

Ah that changes things a bit.

All in all, loving the changes! I'd been thinking of rolling up a barbarian toon. Prior to these updates, Whirling Frenzy was the only obvious choice. Now, I find the two rage modes to be roughly equal in terms of power. A win for balance, imo.

That said, I have a question..

matelener wrote:it doesn't stack with Haste spell but it does with other haste effects like Flee the Scene / Blinding Speed.

Valefort wrote:Ah that changes things a bit.

Is the extra attack from Whirling Frenzy supposed to stack with haste? Or is it a bug that it stacks with Flee the Scene/Blinding Speed?

Is the extra attack from Whirling Frenzy supposed to stack with haste? Or is it a bug that it stacks with Flee the Scene/Blinding Speed?

It's not supposed to, the other spells are an oversight more than anything as far as I'm concerned.

btw when are these changes going in and can we barbs expect a free refund ?

It's said in the title "next update", and no one knows exactly when that will happen. Also for the shield AC it's the shield enchantment that will be overridden.

So if you have something like heavy shield +3 and mighty rage, you'll get 2 (base shield AC) + max(3 (shield enchant), rage bonus).

And since you have mighty rage you'll get 4 bonus AC so 2 (heavy shield base) +4 (whirlwind frenzy shield AC).

Valefort wrote:Also for the shield AC it's the shield enchantment that will be overridden.

So if you have something like heavy shield +3 and mighty rage, you'll get 2 (base shield AC) + max(3 (shield enchant), rage bonus).

And since you have mighty rage you'll get 4 bonus AC so 2 (heavy shield base) +4 (whirlwind frenzy shield AC).

What about a shield wand - does it becomes useless when raging ?

Theodore01 wrote:What about a shield wand - does it becomes useless when raging ?

Yes, it will become useless with Whirling Frenzy.

Valefort wrote:It's said in the title "next update", and no one knows exactly when that will happen. Also for the shield AC it's the shield enchantment that will be overridden.

So if you have something like heavy shield +3 and mighty rage, you'll get 2 (base shield AC) + max(3 (shield enchant), rage bonus).

And since you have mighty rage you'll get 4 bonus AC so 2 (heavy shield base) +4 (whirlwind frenzy shield AC).

Alright, so basically, you intend to make my Halfling Barbarian redundant. Things are much worse for him than I originally thought. Basically, what Epic Rage gives him is nothing more than a +1 point of AC. Thus, with all the OP goodies that Standard Rage offers, well... RCR time.

Oh and, a halfling with Tower Shield Profiency and Monkey Grip is still is not allowed to wield a Tower Shield. I know, I have those feats.

Edit: I mean, practically identical amount of AC, with more damage per hit, more regeneration, will and fortitude saves so high that you basically have quasi immunity against save or die effects. Once again, why go for Whirlwind Frenzy - when Standard Rage becomes so much better?

Comments Only wrote:Alright, so basically, you intend to make my Halfling Barbarian redundant. Things are much worse for him than I originally thought. Basically, what Epic Rage gives him is nothing more than a +1 point of AC. Thus, with all the OP goodies that Standard Rage offers, well... RCR time.

Yeah, same for my dualwielding halfling barbarian.

And even a 3 level barb. dip will then prefer standard rage.

QC made Barbarian too good...now it's time to backtrack!

Where once Whirlwind Rage has the benefit of Epic AC bonus, and Standard Rage had HP + saves + duration, now it will be that Standard Rage is the optimal pick, every time.

Especially if that Regen stacks.

It merely nerfs the barbarians who used a shield to get sky high AC, yes those ones will be better off going normal rage now. On a good old 2 hander barbarian i'll still pick whirlwind frenzy anytime.

Steve wrote:QC made Barbarian too good...now it's time to backtrack!

Where once Whirlwind Rage has the benefit of Epic AC bonus, and Standard Rage had HP + saves + duration, now it will be that Standard Rage is the optimal pick, every time.

Especially if that Regen stacks.

not so fast.

a no shield using barb is still going to benefit more from the WW rage. the extra attack would make more damage and provides the potential for the big spike damage that is desirable. i do not place the 2 points of regen while raging as really that game altering. nor do i think that 2/3/4/5 bonus damage is that awe inspiring, but i find that much more potent than the regen. as far as saves go, that can be solved thru cross classing. most of the good builds are going a route that serves well the low will save.

there is now parody in the rages. that is good. nice work team.

Valefort wrote:It merely nerfs the barbarians who used a shield to get sky high AC, yes those ones will be better off going normal rage now. On a good old 2 hander barbarian i'll still pick whirlwind frenzy anytime.

No, you do not. Why suffer a -2 Attack Bonus penalty, and gain +1 AC at level 25, when you could get the exact same strength modifier along with these bonuses:

mrm3ntalist wrote:Standard Rage :
Remove the AC penalty.
Add an effect to heal you if the CON loss makes you go below 0 HP.
Bonus damage 2/3/4/5
Regen 1 for rage and greater rage, regen 2 for mighty and epic rage

About my sword-and-board halfling barbarian, he has Monkey Grip just so that he can be a two-hander with a great weapon. If these changes go in, he will not stay a Whirlwind Frenzy barbarian. He will go Standard Rage - because it is easy to argue how it is superior compared to our current Whirlwind Frenzy.

Steve wrote:QC made Barbarian too good...now it's time to backtrack!

I wish that were the case, but they are basically turning one rage variant pointless and buffing the other to a point where it is practically the superior choice even against the 'current Whirlwind Frenzy.'