Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

No offense, i was just giving an opinion.

My conclusion: Orc War Drummer is superior to Dwarven Battlerager.

Concerning Key abilities: i dont value those given by Dwarven Battlerager high. Fear Immunity? You may want high CON on your OWD for longer rage duration and may also have Steadfest Determination, there are also other methods (low lvl spells) to ward against fear. Great Cleave is nice to qualify for Frenz.Berzerker. The rest, meh....

OWD Order to Charge sounds fun; that is if the other Orcs dont are Barbarian & Frenz.Berzerkers, which they are probably.....

Concerning Skill Points: They are always too low. And that hurts. Could argue a OWD has more of an Barbarian and therefore shall get 4 + INT skill points. But not sure if this makes him even more powerful... especially with WoD and Spellcraft Class Skill. Try to insert Able Learner? Pick Barbarian levels?

I would try to build OWD like this: 21 or 22 Barbarian (DR 6), OWD 5, WoD 4 or 3. Take the new and enhanced Standard Rage for longer Rage Duration and improved dmg output(+5)/Regeneration2. Go for EDR III (DR 15), get your TowerShield (this is your War Drum ) and you are ready for the fight. WoD also gives access to Spellcraft and Tumble as Class Skills, less crossclass skillpoints investions. Besides WoD will grant you H.Armor Prof. and TowerShield Prof.

Whirlwind rage :
Changing the bonus AC from Dodge to Shield type.

Standard Rage :
Remove the AC penalty.
Add an effect to heal you if the CON loss makes you go below 0 HP.
Bonus damage 2/3/4/5
Regen 1 for rage and greater rage, regen 2 for mighty and epic rage

EDIT: To be honest: Dwarven Battlerager isnt one of the superior classes. I picked Divine Champion/Fighter/AK/WoD over Battlerager for my Dwarven Barbarian. And OWD may not be as good as those classes, but still better than Battlerager

aaron22 wrote:a barb 25/WD5 is not better than a barb 30. its not better than a barb 20/WoD4/DC6. its not better than a barb20/D10. X25/WD5 is not better than any reasonable Bard build.

It is not supposed to make stronger build options, that is called power creep. The benefit of a new PRC is diversity, RP options, and lore connections. And of course, FUN.

I'm not really a fan of the name for the class though. Maybe I'm just not well versed in orc lore, but a drummer? Seems like the job you give to the weakest grunts in your army, to walk behind the warriors drumming a march rhythm. How about Orc War Chanter? Orc Task Master?

Sputnik wrote:

chad878262 wrote:(DC will be 36 for WD 5 with 32 perform)...

This is incorrect. DC for Inspire Fear is 15+OWD lvl+perform ranks/3.
Thus, the DC for a OWD 5 with 32 perform would be 30.

Your math is right, but you forget at level 30 you can have 33 perform, making the max DC 31.

That said, apologies for the confusion. We had discussed ranks/2 in QC which would have capped the DC at 36 as opposed to 31, but it must have ended up as ranks/3. Downside of releasing detail before the class is finalized is you get confused QC'ers who state information from the QC side discussion that is no longer accurate, I suppose.

What about perform gear? What about CHA bonus to perform? What about skill focus perform?
Are they added to the perform count before the /3 ?

dzidek1983 wrote:What about perform gear? What about CHA bonus to perform? What about skill focus perform?
Are they added to the perform count before the /3 ?

Valefort wrote:Regarding perform just ranks, the DC will already be high (and if you want it you've got to pay ).

This maxes the DC vs. Fear at 31. Not bad, but could use a bit of love in my opinion.
That's why I suggested that multiple OWD within eachother's Inspire Fear AoE would recieve bonuses to the DC of the ability, maxing it at 36.

It would probably be easier to simply make it ranks/2, which would have the same net result (DC 36)... I can't find in QC where it went to ranks/3 so I'm pretty sure the DC is still up for discussion.

if you build the model up you realize that because you need to finish(level30) on OWD5. you only gain the OWM or +2AB/Dmg until you have completed all of your levels. this makes it far less potent and useful.

as far as the power creep. i totally respect that philosophy. and respect the task you have in creation with so many caveats involved. where i feel this falls short is when we look at the past incarnations of race specific PrC's. these do not have to be within the power creep limitations because they are supposed to take advantage of the racial gifts that make the race unique and their lore fun. the power creep is not in play here because the racial limitations cage in any sort of abundances and power comparisons.

also it is not a +2AB/Dmg and -2 to enemies. it is one or the other. cannot have two inspirations running at a time. so lets not confuse this. it makes it situationally better but they do not make it better by compounding. and when it does compound (if i am reading it correctly) it will not be until level 30 when you will get it and at that point, we should acknowledge, that lessens it's impact.

overall its a nice class. does it take advantage and accentuate what orc's do best? not really. is it lore friendly and have a nice RP to it? mostly. do i think people will see this class and choose to try some orc RP over another because this class provides an avenue to something desirable? Absolutely not in my opinion. and that is why i am a bit disappointed.

what would i change? i dont even know where to start. it has no synergy. it doesnt have tie-ins or provide a place where stacking can be generated.

aaron22 wrote:if you build the model up you realize that because you need to finish(level30) on OWD5. you only gain the OWM or +2AB/Dmg until you have completed all of your levels. this makes it far less potent and useful.

Care to qualify this statement? Why is it you 'need' to finish on OWD5? Is it because you don't want to take Able Learner? Why couldn't you end on Dervish? Or gain some Bonus Feats from Fighter or Divine Champion to make up for taking Able Learner? I don't see why you would want to delay OWD5 to 30... I would want to get it ASAP. F12/WoD10/OWD5/BG3 I would end on WoD levels...B20/OWD5/FB5 (or DC 5) I would end with a couple levels of FB. I can't think of any builds where you 'MUST' end on OWM5...

aaron22 wrote:as far as the power creep. i totally respect that philosophy. and respect the task you have in creation with so many caveats involved. where i feel this falls short is when we look at the past incarnations of race specific PrC's. these do not have to be within the power creep limitations because they are supposed to take advantage of the racial gifts that make the race unique and their lore fun. the power creep is not in play here because the racial limitations cage in any sort of abundances and power comparisons.

If you take vanilla PRC's out of the mix and look at the race specific ones we have implemented (Breech Gnome, Dwarven Battlerager, Elven Bladesinger) they are LESS powerful than other options. If anything Breech Gnome is probably the 'top' racial PRC and it is far from a Power Building option. This class is quite a powerful combo for any melee build, rather than being 'only' for Barbarians, or Fighters... It works well with any combination you come up with.

aaron22 wrote:also it is not a +2AB/Dmg and -2 to enemies. it is one or the other. cannot have two inspirations running at a time. so lets not confuse this. it makes it situationally better but they do not make it better by compounding. and when it does compound (if i am reading it correctly) it will not be until level 30 when you will get it and at that point, we should acknowledge, that lessens it's impact.

Reread the description... At level 5 they get an ability which adds the Fear inspiration effects to the Battle Rhythm effects, so you do get +2/+2/-2/-2...

Edit:

Orc War March: At 5th level an Orcish War Drummer, through skill and habit, is able to inspire fear in his enemies while playing a Battle Rythm.

Again, Valefort mentioned the ability probably needs renamed to avoid confusion, but this is referring to the level 3 'Inspire Fear' ability... It is not an actual fear effect, it is the -2/-2.


EDIT 2: Would also add that Tempest has much steeper requirements, gives +2 AC, +2 AB and 2 feats (Greater TWF, Whirlwind Attack). This PRC costs less feats, gives +2 AB/+2 Damage, and a will save for the equivalent of +2 AC/+2 DR (most melee's have bad will saves, right?) as well as the 1/4 minutes Orders to Charge. I would say this PRC is getting more than Tempest get's for less investment. People build with that PRC pretty often since it can be STR based and still get Greater TWF, only outdone by Ranger which requires a massive investment of 21 levels to get to PTWF or 11 for GTWF. Same thing here, as I stated earlier you are getting the equivalent of about 4-5 feats worth of bonuses over those 5 levels and you do not lose any AB, on top of getting 4 SP / level... How many high BAB classes get 4 SP / level? There are a few, but not many.

Tekill wrote:So is the War Drummer, drumming when using his abilities?
Does he only have to drum for a few seconds to get his abilities going before pulling out his great axe?

Can't really drum and fight at the same time can you?

All instruments require a level of Bard/Harper agent or UMD to use. But yeah, you can actually make unarmed attacks while holding an instrument. Just letting you know that. (Drum takes up the shield slot, but you cannot equip a weapon alongside with it.)

So as for builds.... Barbarian 22/Fist of the Forest 3/Drummer Boy 5 could be something to look at...


Edit: let this PRC have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for free... Just in case someone wants to actually drum, with a drum based PRC.

Care to qualify this statement? Why is it you 'need' to finish on OWD5? Is it because you don't want to take Able Learner? Why couldn't you end on Dervish? Or gain some Bonus Feats from Fighter or Divine Champion to make up for taking Able Learner? I don't see why you would want to delay OWD5 to 30... I would want to get it ASAP. F12/WoD10/OWD5/BG3 I would end on WoD levels...B20/OWD5/FB5 (or DC 5) I would end with a couple levels of FB. I can't think of any builds where you 'MUST' end on OWM5...

any build if you want to max your perform so that you can utilize the -2/-2 IF save fails. and you dont want to spend 1/4 of your starting stat points on intelligence just to qualify for CE and two other less usefull feats. and that is just so i can use the few skill points it has for a single feat that may or may not work with zero openings for anything that could stack that devotion. and on top of that, the skill is bolstered/undermined by a stat that also receives a -2 starting penalty. to me this is a slap in the face. would you place the DD's armor bonuses that may or may not apply on a skill that has no use outside of it and carries no RP benefit as well as being the most challenging skill to achieve numbers without bard which is off limits. unreasonable. and then the bonus is not that good to be worth that much trouble. the whole class is not that good for that much trouble.

If you take vanilla PRC's out of the mix and look at the race specific ones we have implemented (Breech Gnome, Dwarven Battlerager, Elven Bladesinger) they are LESS powerful than other options. If anything Breech Gnome is probably the 'top' racial PRC and it is far from a Power Building option. This class is quite a powerful combo for any melee build, rather than being 'only' for Barbarians, or Fighters... It works well with any combination you come up with.

why are we taking vanilla prc's out. that is not what i am talking about. that would be like me comparing red apples to green apples and you say take out these green apples and lets look at oranges instead. lets look at the main two prototype racial prcs. they are the backbone. the orc race doesnt have a vanilla backbone prc. so making one is out of the question, because why? is it asking too much? that is a real question. is it?

Reread the description... At level 5 they get an ability which adds the Fear inspiration effects to the Battle Rhythm effects, so you do get +2/+2/-2/-2...

make some builds. see how practical it is to have 3 wasted feats and not get pushed into classes like fighter and DC to just get what you need and not use those feats to push you from a good to a better build. try some of your builds and see if you make them better with the inclusion of OWD. bet you dont. by the way its +2/+2/ and if save vs fear fails -2/-2. how many prc's give way better than +2/+2. seriously *shakes head in dismay*

i am not really wanting to see you guys waste your time, but i doubt people will roll this class. to much trouble for the lack of benefit. sorry.

EDIT:

EDIT 2: Would also add that Tempest has much steeper requirements, gives +2 AC, +2 AB and 2 feats (Greater TWF, Whirlwind Attack). This PRC costs less feats, gives +2 AB/+2 Damage, and a will save for the equivalent of +2 AC/+2 DR (most melee's have bad will saves, right?) as well as the 1/4 minutes Orders to Charge. I would say this PRC is getting more than Tempest get's for less investment. People build with that PRC pretty often since it can be STR based and still get Greater TWF, only outdone by Ranger which requires a massive investment of 21 levels to get to PTWF or 11 for GTWF. Same thing here, as I stated earlier you are getting the equivalent of about 4-5 feats worth of bonuses over those 5 levels and you do not lose any AB,

tempest has so much synergy with classes that it pairs with that calling this out IS SILLY. its +3AC/+2AB. it doesnt ask you to get skill points in something that is TOTALLY useless. OMG tempest is tie-in heaven with tons of synergy and stacking feats and perks to take a build from good to better at very little cost becuase it's all tied together neatly. LMAO. tempest is such a bad comparison. if OWD had half the synergy of tempest i would be doing backflips to roll this

on top of getting 4 SP / level... How many high BAB classes get 4 SP / level? There are a few, but not many.

on a race that is -2 int so its not like SP's are something that orc builds typically do more than get the bare bones with. hard to flavor your toon when you have 1 SP (2/3 on your OWD). its the way the race is and one of the many hardships evolved in playing orc that are not being factored at all while you make your PrC.

A Tempest build TWF some blunt maces playing with them on a drum and smashing skulls at the same time bad orc style.

We simply are not going to create PRC's on a power level with Dwarven Defender, sorry, we've said this in the past. When looking at the top PRC's do not expect newly introduced PRC's to be at that level. There are enough OP builds and if you are building for power, go for Bard26/X4 and go have fun. This is a solid PRC with some good benefits, but you can't see them, and that's ok...There are a few PRC's I don't see much point in, but others may very well find them fun and more power to them!

Able Learner solves all of your problems... If you are a Barabarian it makes sense anyway, since you get more skill points. If you are a Fighter you should be able to afford the feat.

give able learning for free then. or daylight adaption

Any thoughts on extended rage adding duration to orders to charge? Even if they each added maybe half the rounds rounded down.. so extended​ rage II would add 5 rounds.

well hoped for better. but nobody rolling this isnt going to change the server from what it is now. have fun everybody.

nothing to see here

keep moving...