High Arcana and Arcane Help for the Clueless

[Planehopper]

Sorry if I sound very negative here.

Naw, I think you are right, which is the reason I posted this for the most part. I hoped I was looking at things wrong.

Wizard is a definite. 5 levels will net the bonus feat. The other 2 levels though, those are the question.

Epic Gate was changed to allow for more options, right? Is it still underwhelming? I will take it either way just for the Thaumaturge RP angle.

[K'yon Oblodra]

Sorry if I sound very negative here.

Naw, I think you are right, which is the reason I posted this for the most part. I hoped I was looking at things wrong.

In my opinion the only decent high arcana feat is really the arcane fire and only if you hit the 10 levels which will grant you several bad high arcana. The best option probably being choosing a few low level spells as spell-like abilities.

I'll actually get Thaumaturge for K'yon thanks to your thread here.

Wizard is a definite. 5 levels will net the bonus feat. The other 2 levels though, those are the question.

Well 5 wizard 2 ASoC then seems to be optimal

[Deathgrowl]

What do you want out of the build? As a conjuration focus, you don't really have spells in your focus with a lot of save vs lose mechanics. Why not just max out asoc? A lot of nice stuff from that.

[Planehopper]

Right now I am dual-focused with Conj and Enchantment (Epic SF Enchant), so there are some benefits to DC's being raised with those spells, in particular the Dominate line. That would be the Grt INT justification.

Though now that I look at it, those two feats being used for that 1 DC seems a heavy cost when considering the ASoC extras like improved max and improved quicken.

How much is 1 DC worth?

[chad878262]

This is not entirely true, High Arcana is quite good, but it's use has to be considered.

- Spell Power 1 and 2 for 4 levels makes up for "losing" levels of Wizard since you gain a DC on your spells as well as being harder to dispel with Mords. Spell Power 3 is good for some builds that reach CL34 or 37 based on other PRC's since it will put them up to 35/38. And of course every CL past 30 is a 5% better chance for your wards to resist the dispel portion of Mords.

- Mastery of Shaping is fantastic for an Armored Blaster Sorc as you can stand in the middle of a horde (as can your party) and unleash nuclear destruction at will without harming yourself or your allies.

- Mastery of Elements is again, better for Sorcs as they are better blasters. It would of course be THE reason to take Archmage if it worked with Frost Mage piercing cold ability and would probably make Sorc/AM/FM/ASoC one of the most powerful classes on the server...I suppose it's a good thing that Mastery of Elements doesn't work with Piercing Cold...

- Spell Like abilities can be quite nice. You lose a 9th level slot to be able to cast a 9th level spell as an SLA twice per day (or 7th or 8th level slot), losing a slot in 4-6 gives you 3/day and 1-3 gives you 4/day. Who doesn't want to be able to cast more spells?????


Which of the High Arcana's are best is very dependent on your build. DC Wizards which include any combination of Blood Magus, Shadow Adept or Red Wizard can certainly benefit from Spell Power and as shown Sorcerer types can make solid use of Mastery of Elements and Shaping.

Is it worth it? Well, no, to me Archmage is a class you take for the RP... Wizard 30 will likely have better DC's thanks to more feats and less requirements. W/SA/BM is better than it is mixing in Archmage, though taking AM to 4 or 6 wouldn't hurt, the feat requirements would be very tough, if not impossible to manage.

In PnP Archmage is 5 levels with a High Arcana every level, but that would be quite OP on this server, thus the change to 10 levels and every other. In any case, if it is a question of building for power, in most cases you leave AM out of your build. If you are including it for the RP, well, then I suppose you make due with what you get out of the class.


How much is 1 DC worth? It depends... If your talking max DC of 34 or 35, likely not much as most end game mobs that matter will save. However, going from 40 to 41 might be a big deal in some cases, being the difference between 75% success rate vs. 80%, for example.

[Valefort]

If you're a thaumaturge you likely use some low level buffing spells frequently so I would go for low level SLAs : improved mage armor and displacement, freeing up spell slots that can be otherwise scarce in those levels.

Greater INT is available as bonus wizard feats. Anyway I'd go for SLAs then more ASoC levels instead of wizard levels unless you want to go full great INT.

Wiz 10 / thaum 5 / AM 8 / ASoC 7

[Planehopper]

I clearly fit the 2nd part of this thread's subject line..

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I have a lot to chew on before I take my next level.

[K'yon Oblodra]

How much is 1 DC worth?

I'd say considering there is a d20 involved in saving throws its like 5% on saving throws... Hope I am not making a silly mistake here

Chad I liked the RP idea behind it but taking 10 levels of it only to make arcane fire worthwhile while not knowing which other high arcana I'd even want...

[Planehopper]

How much is 1 DC worth?

I'd say considering there is a d20 involved in saving throws its like 5% on saving throws... Hope I am not making a silly mistake here

Chad I liked the RP idea behind it but taking 10 levels of it only to make arcane fire worthwhile while not knowing which other high arcana I'd even want...

Yeah, smart-guy, I realize it is 5% but I meant worth the feat cost. Two GRT INT feats to go up 5%?

If I decide to go the route suggested by Valefort I will have 3 feat choices remaining. I want to take Epic Gate and Improved familiar for the RP, so I would either have to sacrifice my RP concept (not happening) or not have feats left to take the 2 GRT INT and grab that DC.

I could take one GRT INT and buff my INT for that 1 DC, or I could use that feat in another way. Another epic spell perhaps.

[chad878262]

How much is 1 DC worth?

I'd say considering there is a d20 involved in saving throws its like 5% on saving throws... Hope I am not making a silly mistake here

Chad I liked the RP idea behind it but taking 10 levels of it only to make arcane fire worthwhile while not knowing which other high arcana I'd even want...

It should be easy, you're a Necromancer right? Were it me I would go for W14/BM6/AM10 with 3 Spell Powers, Arcane Fire and Spell Like Ability, Wail of the Banshee. That's 2 wails for the price of 1 and with Blood Seeking Spell your Caster Level is 35 giving +2 DC over a 'normal' wizard. In this case you could take 4 levels in some other class, or you could take Blood Magus to 10 which will net you more than those 4 'dead' levels of Wizard as well. W10/SA3/BM7/AM10 would be a good mix as well for +2 DC on Necromancy and Illusion spells via shadow adept...however, IMO it wouldn't make all that much sense for a Drow to worship Shar in the Underdark.

I thought the difficulties you had were with trying to over-mix Gish with DC caster... Now that you've dropped Gish and are going DC caster it should be a bit easier for you. While AM 10 is NOT ideal, for reaching the highest DC's it is still serviceable.

[Planehopper]

Archmage (6) 24 HA: Buffing SLA
Arcane Scholar (4) 25 Feat: Epic Gate
Arcane Scholar (5) 26 Bonus Feat: Quicken
Archmage (7) 27 Feat: Improved familiar
Archmage (8) 28 HA: Buffing SLA
Arcane Scholar (6) 29 Feat: TBD
Arcane Scholar (7) 30 Bonus Feat: Improved Max

That leaves me with a feat to choose late in the game (in case you ever-busy devs give me reason to need one), gives me something to look forward to at every level (which is awesome at epic levels for me. The struggle is real), and allows me to have the two flavor feats I really wanted to have included.

DCs on Dominate Monster will be 10+9+9+3+4 = 35. Is that serviceable enough for epic spawns?

[chad878262]

Arcane Scholar (6) 29 Feat: TBD

Auto-Quicken, 0-1... All your first level spells are quickened. Nice utility to throw a quick expeditious retreat when needed (or grease or whatever else, not like first level spells are super exciting). Since quickened you can throw a grease and then a cloud spell, or web, or evards tentacles or whatever in the same round.

[K'yon Oblodra]

How much is 1 DC worth?

I'd say considering there is a d20 involved in saving throws its like 5% on saving throws... Hope I am not making a silly mistake here

Chad I liked the RP idea behind it but taking 10 levels of it only to make arcane fire worthwhile while not knowing which other high arcana I'd even want...

It should be easy, you're a Necromancer right? Were it me I would go for W14/BM6/AM10 with 3 Spell Powers, Arcane Fire and Spell Like Ability, Wail of the Banshee. That's 2 wails for the price of 1 and with Blood Seeking Spell your Caster Level is 35 giving +2 DC over a 'normal' wizard. In this case you could take 4 levels in some other class, or you could take Blood Magus to 10 which will net you more than those 4 'dead' levels of Wizard as well. W10/SA3/BM7/AM10 would be a good mix as well for +2 DC on Necromancy and Illusion spells via shadow adept...however, IMO it wouldn't make all that much sense for a Drow to worship Shar in the Underdark.

The spell-like abilities are really quiet intriquing for the mid-low levels, spell powers not so sure.

Regarding Shadow Adept, I really liked that idea actually searched for people to RP with cause Shar fits K'yon's habit to hold grudges immensely well. I tried to not hold grudges against player characters at least openly because I fear that might be bad for OOC relations. But yea Shadow adept would fit K'yon's concept very well. However I'd want to have people to RP the whole religion thing with first.

Lastly regarding the Blood Mage, while it is a great class both RPwise and mechanically, I think however that it doesn't fit drow at all.
Now this is just my opinion but drow while really power hungry also love their own bodies very much and blood magic is in a way sacrificing this to gain power.
So again in my opinion a drow would need to be super desperate to do that, which doesn't fit K'yon at all.

Now that is just my personal opinion and I am aware that there are quiet a few drow that actually are blood mages and also pale masters. To me it doesn't fit with the valueing of the own body theme although I am aware that drow seem to really worship drow vampires for instance.

But yea sorry for high jacking you're thread once more Planehopper

[Glowfire]

however, IMO it wouldn't make all that much sense for a Drow to worship Shar in the Underdark.

Shar has power over darkness, night, loss and forgetfulness, if I've understood it correctly. She does not yet have Ibrandul's portfolio but I'd consider her a very valid UD deity.

[chad878262]

I suppose, but doesn't exactly fit with Drow philosophy does it? As the goddess loss/entropy and what not would drow give up themselves to such a deity?

Though I may be thinking what she BECOMES rather than what she was known as during the 2e timeline...so...yeah, as you were.