Casting in Shapechange/Polymorph...is possible! What?!?

[Hoihe]

Here's a simple and logical explanation on why orb spells, and similar spells bypass spell immunity, and magic immunity spell effects of more complicated forms.

Simply put, orb spells create an object that your propel at the enemy. The object itself is no longer magical, and is thus unaffected. Refer to igniting a forest and throwing a drow in the flames vs casting firewall (with low Cl) under the said drow. One of those will result in a toasted drow, the other in a pissed off drow.

[Steve]

Well...based on the new changes coming soon, I see it time to bump this!!!

[Steve]

Alrighty Community...time to get this addressed in a re(actionable) way. There is now simply differing or no clear information, and that my friends, is not good.

So, here we go:

On the new Polymorph Changes (proposed) page, Nachti stated:

100% spell failure is added to polymorph effects, preventing exploiting.

Yet, if you visit the newly written Polymorphing page on the BGSTCC wiki, the above reference to 100% spell failure is nowhere to be read. If the 100% Spell Failure has been removed, and the situation will remain as it is, i.e. no application of a 100% spell failure on form change, then disregard the rest of this post. But if the text on the Wiki is simply incomplete, then:

Looking at the New List of shapes, and knowing what Monsters/NPCs/mobs of the BGTSCC actually have casting abilities when we fight them, such as Kobolds, Golbins, Humans (!!!), Frost Giants, Dragons, etc. Now, one can argue that many of these Shapes have innate spellcasting abilities, not verbal + somatic ones, but unless these Shapes grant the Polymorphed/Shapechanged caster these abilities, then...let them have their already limited spellbook choices!!

Looking back to my OP, where I list out the reasoning behind how Polymorphing and Shapechange should allow Spell Casting as per D&D core rules for some Shapes, I think this is pretty clear that Spell Casting should be allowed in Shapes (at least those that would have the capabilities for both verbal and somatic requirements.

[Sun Wukong]

Looking back to my OP, where I list out the reasoning behind how Polymorphing and Shapechange should allow Spell Casting as per D&D core rules for some Shapes, I think this is pretty clear that Spell Casting should be allowed in Shapes (at least those that would have the capabilities for both verbal and somatic requirements.

Actually, if you apply the correct metamagic, you should be able to cast more or less regardless of the shape. As for spell components, those are on a seperate belt that can be dropped and picked up to be slung over the shoulder or something. Of course the DM might try to snatch it away, but a good party will guard their caster and all that. Not to mention that spell components are not even added in this game.

But I suppose we have to consider that NWN2 is not PnP D&D around a table. You are usually up against multitude of 'lower' challenge rating mobs rather than a single big bad with a balanced party. Not to mention that with NWN2 you are far more likely to butt heads with other players than you are around at the PnP table.

So yeah, PvP raises its head... But in general, I suppose that Regenerating Horned Devil with 30 DR, 50% Concealment, Mirror Images, 50~ or so AC, with Spell Mantles and Dispels, while spamming those Maximized Greater Missile Storms and Quickened Bigby Sixes --- might seem a little unfair pretty much against everything.

:/

[Steve]

But in general, I suppose that Regenerating Horned Devil with 30 DR, 50% Concealment, Mirror Images, 50~ or so AC, with Spell Mantles and Dispels, while spamming those Maximized Greater Missile Storms and Quickened Bigby Sixes --- might seem a little unfair pretty much against everything.

:/

Yes, but I am also assuming that the Shapes have been re-balanced, as per Nachti's notes (and what I assume are hidden QC reports on Shapechange balance).

[Sun Wukong]

"Rebalanced" - who knows what that actually entails until the shapes are out and someone puts their stats to the wiki. Could be one way or another.

[Nachti]

They are on the wiki for some days now.

Spell Failure on the wiki is missed because I accidently erased it during formating.

[Sun Wukong]

I do not mean the names of the shapes, I mean the actual stats, immunities, resistances, and weaknesses.

https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Polymorph_Self

https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Shapechange

[Steve]

*bump on the issue of 100% spell failure*

[Sun Wukong]

Yes Steve, you should be able to cast in shape...

But I do recall one day many years ago... in the Cloakwood Mines... When the first level was shaped like a number eight and had melee spawns of bugbears in it, and there were some Umberhulks in the second level...

A group of BGTSCC DMs were on their player characters, having a bit of laugh and adventure. They ran into a single arcanist transformed into a troll with the polymorph spell. The troll had concealment, stone skin, elemental shield, mirror images, and regeneration of 5 HP per round, not to mention the AC from Shield, Improved Mage Armor, and Spider Skin spells. When the party landed hits, they took damage from the elemental shield, and most of the time they did not land their hits. The arcanist in the troll shape just kept pummeling at them... Until they had to flee.

Oh, and the party did have an arcanist of their own. It was just that the arcanist in the troll shape actually managed to one shot the party's arcanist with a well placed Missile Storm, all the missiles hit the other arcanist.

Hence, the no 'quickcast' bug in Shapechange/Polymorph ruling... and the rule has been in place for such a long time that it is more or less the status quo of the server. But in theory, we could say you are going against some pretty ancient butthurt.

[Nachti]

NwN2 is a multiplayer game based on d&d. However the balancing of d&d 3.5 is ....quiite sh-it.

So while I personally aim to make everything accurate to d&d I have to fix this balancing issues.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And for me that means:

• There are four archetypes: Fighter, Rogue, Divine Caster and Arcane Caster.
• A specialized arcane caster can become a fighter but he should be never as good as a "figher". Approximately 75% power of a "fighter" seems to be a good theoretical number.
• So 75% melee power and full spellcasting? Displacement, Premonition, Heal, Haste.... all these effects lift an caster above 100%. So for what do we need fighters if a caster can fill his spot even better?
• If I'd allow spellcasting the power of the forms would have to drop to 25-50%.
• The only exception here might be the Shifter PrC.

Figther: Means common melee builds without 5d6 sneak or CL11+ but with High BAB.

[Steve]

And for me that means:

• There are four archetypes: Fighter, Rogue, Divine Caster and Arcane Caster.

In principle, I'm totally with you on this, mate. Furthermore, each archetype should have particular applications of their Type, which the other 3 cannot excel. But, by no means should it be that any of the other 3 cannot be skillful or applicable in related ways...otherwise, we might as well disregard Multi-classing entirely (example: rogue-mage-arcane tricksters).

I would love nothing more than a BGTSCC Server that catered to these 4 archetypes, and had Content that allowed for each archetype to "shine" in particular ways...but unfortunately, that simply isn't how it is, currently. So the question lingers: why edit Polymorphing is such a way that it now "adheres" to archetypes, when other Classes/PrCs are free from archetype editing?

[*]A specialized arcane caster can become a fighter but he should be never as good as a "figher". Approximately 75% power of a "fighter" seems to be a good theoretical number.
[*]So 75% melee power and full spellcasting? Displacement, Premonition, Heal, Haste.... all these effects lift an caster above 100%. So for what do we need fighters if a caster can fill his spot even better?
[*]If I'd allow spellcasting the power of the forms would have to drop to 25-50%.
[*]The only exception here might be the Shifter PrC.[/list]

A fighter from the Archtype—one that does not rely on buffs—should never tire. Tiring is defined as: spells running out from the Spellbook, dispels, the inability to Rest and recover. None of the forms in Shapechange currently equal the melee power of a Fighter, in either AB and DMG.

It is unrealistic to argue archetypes when there are extreme artificial buffs of mobs and Bosses, throughout the Server, done specifically in order to counter the most powerful Builds possible (you know what those are!!). There are already "inbetween" Classes that straddle 2+ archetypes that, alone and as currently implemented on BGTSCC, can solo everything. To make a balancing of Shapechange possibilities by 100% spellcasting and not address other issues, is quite subjective, and unfortunately biased (as a result, not as intentional).

Currently, if you build for a high BAB Gish, you will utilize nearly half of your Spellbook for buffing, maybe above 50% even (because your spellcasting Ability is low, you have few bonus spells; some bonus spell slots from gear can help). As well, the CL of your Build will be low if you truly go for high BAB. Casting in Polymorph/Shapechange is beneficial when stripped of a buff by dispel, without having to return to original form, and get killed by doing so. Not to forget to mention that Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange by core definition should allow for casting in forms that meet the requirements.

As well: think about the progression! If you are only thinking in Level 30 terms, please re-think. Because a toon that just reached casting level for Polymorph, or for Shapechange, still has a low CL and thus their utilization of the max power of these spells, is still unrealized. Polymorph also has little value mechanically—itself stated as RP forms—and so, using them in Levels beyond their first gain, cannot be mechanically better than a Fighter of higher level...even if you DID ALLOW FOR SPELLCASTING!!!!

I'm looking for a final answer from up on high that says: we explicitly choose to not allow casting because it is mechanically too powerful for the Server Balance. If that is stated, fine. Then, we can truly begin to balance out all the other OP Build combos then. Right??!

What are you balancing for, really? This is not rhetorical! I'd really like to know, from a general perspective in QC and the Scripters, because I really can't see anything publicly stated that gives the Community some sort of reference to thinking about Server Changes and how/why they are made. Though I cannot say more how much I appreciate changes and additions to Content, I think it is truly best practice if you give the Players a clear description of the WWWWW of Balance and edits/changes to existing content.

The paradigm was not to balance for PvP, unless there was extreme unfair/exploiting of such a Build (combo). Balancing against Solo Play? Does anyone really care if a powerful Build can solo the White Dragon (which, btw, if Karond couldn't do it.... ). What is the Standard? Because archwtypes are good way to look at it, but in order for archetypes to become a Standard, you will need to rebalance the Content in the form of Areas and NPCs/mobs, in order to see a true Archetype Standard work.

That's a lot of work. It the Staff is up to the task, then hats off to you all! Seriously. But in the meantime, can we all just be open and honest and clear about why decisions are made, and for those decisions to be voiced publicly?

[Steve]

H

On BGTSCC we won't be allowing casting while shapechanged at the current time. It was already disabled, and is listed as an example of a mechanical exploit DIRECTLY in our server rules. An ASF was added so that people couldn't use client extension commands to bypass the lockouts we've already put in place.

Seems this will be the final word.

It would be nice to know if this decision is based on an opinion held that casting while in Shapechange form or Polymorph form is just Over Powered from a unpublished Mechanical Balance Standard held by Staff. Or...?!?

I just would like to know that the opinion is that Casting Dragon Druid is acceptable, but casting Sorc/Wiz/Shaman/Druid in Polymorph form, is not acceptable (from a power mechanic perspective).

Please address. Thank you.

[Endelyon]

I didn't mean to make it sound like we would never consider it or put it on the table, or that the idea offends me or anything like that, but in this rendition of Shapechange/Polymorph functionality it just wasn't balanced for that in mind.

NWN2's default behavior is to disable spellcasting and feat use while shapechanged, in general. It does this by disabling your hotbars altogether. Previously there was an exploit/workaround for this by using the Quickcast menu to cast spells, but we managed to disable the quickcast menu for people who were transformed. Anothr exploit/workaround was found to still be able to cast spells and use feats by sending text commands while running the client extension.

So the 100% ASF was added to prevent people from using that exploit anymore.

If we wanted to embrace the idea of being able to cast spells while polymorphed into shapes that logically should be able to, we could likely try to do this by adding a specific feat to be delivered that unlocks the quickcast menu for these certain shapes, but there's no system designed for it as of now (and I'm just taking a shot in the dark about how one could work, I'm not even completely certain it would).

Sorry Steve, I didn't mean to make you think that we were opposed to the concept of having any polymorphed shapes ever that might be able to cast spells (as in fact, internally, this has not even been discussed yet), only that right now the functionality to provide for it doesn't exist and wasn't considered in this latest revision, and that the 100% ASF was added to prevent people from exploiting the current system to cast spells in any shape they'd like.

Right now everything is still a bit hectic while we're trying to get everything in order with the changes surrounding this (everyone still has a lot of questions and there's internal discussion about balancing and other issues happening), but I'll bring this idea to the table as well and see what everyone thinks about it.

[Steve]

Thank you and I appreciate the candid reply.

Like I hope I've been clear before, if the opinion is casting while Polymorphed is too powerful mechanically for BGTSCC, then that decision must stand. I personally question that opinion considering the ability for Dragon Druids to cast, or any Druid in any shape (except Shapechange!! ).

I'll assume it is the fear of Wizards with insane DCs being Polymorphed and just wrecking havoc in PvP (or even on mobs/bosses). As Nachti points out, the Polymorphing 1.1 was not implemented to create One Woman Wrecking Balls of Mechanical Power for LOLZ.

For that, we have Bards!!!

Pretty much, the issue here is: if Natural Spell exists, why not have an Arcane Magic Form equivalent? If the Corebook background for Polymorphing isn't enough, then yes, put in a "sacrifice" of a Feat Slot.

Cheers.