A request for another avenue for HiPS

[Mallore]

this sounds a lot like wanting your cake and eating it too. you want pure rogue. it doesnt provide HiPS. you want HiPS, but dont want to take the PrC that provides it.

you want rogue 30. you get rogue 30. it doesnt have HiPS.

I want another prc.

How about choices... is that a bad cake? if so lets go back to just 12 core classes.

[aaron22]

then find one that supports what you want and propose it...

[Deathgrowl]

I wouldn't be against giving, say, Wilderness Stalker ranger hips at level 10, for instance, though. It synergises well with rogue, as it progresses some sneak attack and has high BAB, which is nice. Some AC and camouflage is also cool.

but it is still a ranger druid PRC and not the best thing like a new Roguey PrC.

It actually requires sneak attack and it's specifically an avenue for non-rangers to get camouflage and swift tracking. No ranger in their right mind would take Wilderness Stalker, and druids have absolutely no synergy with it.

Assassin to me isnt rogue. its a murderer. it is not a theif. It is simply the role play. Its not easy to explain but basically assassins should be evil, murders for hire. Some people want to play cat burgerlers and spies and it would be neat to see abilities and bonuses reflective of that.

The name is admittedly an annoying issue, but the same can be said for Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep. People keep thinking you have to be involved with Candlekeep to take it - though the description very clearly say otherwise.

Someone suggested a bit earlier to have the assassin class name changed. That, I can support.

I do not see how another hips class would break the game or hurt. I think it be nice to have a more thieving flavor 10 level prc. I am kinda tired of feeling boxed into one of two build styles on this iconic class. We have a bunch of ways to be wizards and casters, a number of ways to be divine priests, or holy, unlimited ways to be all sorts of stuff. It feels rather limiting however to be a Theif =)

Another hips class in and of itself won't really hurt as long as hips comes late in the class, in order to not get another hips-dip class. But again, if Assassin has its name changed to something move vaguely rogue-like, I don't really see the need for another PRC. I don't mind one, but I have no idea what it can even bring to the table that shadowdancer and assassin doesn't already.

Also Shadow Dancer is not A Faerun thing its just been shoehorned in.. we do have source books with Faerun things for thieves and cool shadow abilities.. I like to see some of these options as well.

Well, first of all, I know the god Mask has 10 levels of shadowdancer, according to the Faiths and Pantheons sourcebook.

I also remember reading about a deep imaskari (I think?) shadowdancer in the Underdark sourcebook for Forgotten Realms. So it is represented in Forgotten Realms.

In the end, would more content hurt? I do not think so. There is no crazy teir 1 build going to come out of this, no crazy omg it will rule the server if we gave rogues hips. I do respect the idea you believe that HiPS is Super Natural ability and maybe thats a reason for rogues not to get this ability, but however if we are going to use that reason then we should consider PrC and ability options of faerun rogues that we do not have. Thus increasing the fun =)

There could definitely be crazy tier1 builds coming out of it if we gave rogue10 or rogue13 the ability to pick HiPS. More content doesn't hurt though, you're right.

But I literally cannot think of anything that is missing from assassin or shadowdancer that would be more "roguey" as you say. Do you have any particular PRCs in mind? Or something homebrewed? What sort of abilities are you looking for in a rogue style PRC with hips?

[matelener]

I'm opposed to generalizing Assassin PRC. To me, Assassin is eighter Avenger or Assassin. It's not a "Rogue Extension" (though it's often treated as such because of HiPS). Assasin's feats describe an assassin, not a thief/vagabond/spy/other rogue archetype:

- Death Attack
- Poison Use, Poison Save
- Spellbook focused on spells assisting in assasinations (not that well reflected in nwn2)


Having said that, QC had a discussion about the viability of rogues that are not SD/Assassin and the main conclusion was to improve Hide in the Shadows feat which is the "ordinary" way of hiding in combat, requiring an object to do so. It scales from 4 sec activation time at Rogue 7 to being instant at Rogue 21. This change is live and if anyone has feedback for the devs, then feel free to post it/PM it.

Beside Hide in the Shadows, there are two other things that did/will benefit rogues:
- Blinding Strike (is available)
- Roguish Devices: Bombs (are in development)

[Kagger911]

Why not go Phantom/Assassin? You get the Ethereal with Death Attacks, and when you attack out of Ethereal you get the death attacks with sneak attacks.

[Bad Omens]

I respect the OP wanting to stay rogue and not take PRCs that fall outside intended RP.

That being said, two things:

I do believe a well built Rogue can survive on this server, investing in AC feats, Epic Dodge and Feint. You can even get crazy with all your extra feats and take Self Concealment! Also, if SD and Assassin aren't your bag, don't forget about Swashbuckler and Duelist if that fits your RP better. They give some really nice synergy for the investment.

Second, HiPs is a supernatural feat. It really shouldn't be open for everyone to acquire. Kinda like saying my Spirit Shaman 30 isn't tough compared to a Druid 30, but if you will just let me take Natural Spell so when I am Shapechanged..... some things are really just meant to be unique to that specific class even if it would be great for others, perhaps especially for that reason.

[Face]

I respect the OP wanting to stay rogue and not take PRCs that fall outside intended RP.

That being said, two things:

I do believe a well built Rogue can survive on this server, investing in AC feats, Epic Dodge and Feint. You can even get crazy with all your extra feats and take Self Concealment! Also, if SD and Assassin aren't your bag, don't forget about Swashbuckler and Duelist if that fits your RP better. They give some really nice synergy for the investment.

Second, HiPs is a supernatural feat. It really shouldn't be open for everyone to acquire. Kinda like saying my Spirit Shaman 30 isn't tough compared to a Druid 30, but if you will just let me take Natural Spell so when I am Shapechanged..... some things are really just meant to be unique to that specific class even if it would be great for others, perhaps especially for that reason.

If hips is a supernatuaral feat and it should not be open for everyone to acquire maybe its a good plan to move SD hips up to level 8 so people cant 3 level dip it for hips any more?
Cous lets be honest here...When you give rogues the chance to take hips on level 10 or 13 or 16 wont make it easy at all for other builds to gain hips...As you would need atleast 10 level of rogue.

[Bad Omens]

Second, HiPs is a supernatural feat. It really shouldn't be open for everyone to acquire. Kinda like saying my Spirit Shaman 30 isn't tough compared to a Druid 30, but if you will just let me take Natural Spell so when I am Shapechanged..... some things are really just meant to be unique to that specific class even if it would be great for others, perhaps especially for that reason.

If hips is a supernatuaral feat and it should not be open for everyone to acquire maybe its a good plan to move SD hips up to level 8 so people cant 3 level dip it for hips any more?
Cous lets be honest here...When you give rogues the chance to take hips on level 10 or 13 or 16 wont make it easy at all for other builds to gain hips...As you would need atleast 10 level of rogue.

I was looking at this from more of a RP standard weighing on the scale, as opposed to mechanical, just FYI. That is what makes SD special, is it's supernatural ability, much like Druid. If you start to dilute feats, you start to dilute classes, their unique nature and diversity of classes. That happens to be why I like DnD 3.5 rules the best, the plethora of classes that lead to unique RP possibilities. That was my point, if it was poorly illustrated before, sorry.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Level 13 Rogue
Cooldown is 12 seconds (2 rounds) between use opposed to the SD 5.
Not treated as SA (smoke bomb or similar vfx instead)
Does not apply/activate if SD HiPS is on the same build (exploit)

Not an easy dip, but has no other requisite for the rogue to move it's abilities / skills / feats around. Isn't specialized in supernatural abilities but isn't devoid of mimicry. Lets rogue and the SD have their own take on the matter in lore and mechanics.

[Face]

Second, HiPs is a supernatural feat. It really shouldn't be open for everyone to acquire. Kinda like saying my Spirit Shaman 30 isn't tough compared to a Druid 30, but if you will just let me take Natural Spell so when I am Shapechanged..... some things are really just meant to be unique to that specific class even if it would be great for others, perhaps especially for that reason.

If hips is a supernatuaral feat and it should not be open for everyone to acquire maybe its a good plan to move SD hips up to level 8 so people cant 3 level dip it for hips any more?
Cous lets be honest here...When you give rogues the chance to take hips on level 10 or 13 or 16 wont make it easy at all for other builds to gain hips...As you would need atleast 10 level of rogue.

I was looking at this from more of a RP standard weighing on the scale, as opposed to mechanical, just FYI. That is what makes SD special, is it's supernatural ability, much like Druid. If you start to dilute feats, you start to dilute classes, their unique nature and diversity of classes. That happens to be why I like DnD 3.5 rules the best, the plethora of classes that lead to unique RP possibilities. That was my point, if it was poorly illustrated before, sorry.

SD 3 levels simply opens up hips to every one and his mom giving hips on rogue level 10 or 13 doesnt.

[Hoihe]

I respect the OP wanting to stay rogue and not take PRCs that fall outside intended RP.

That being said, two things:

I do believe a well built Rogue can survive on this server, investing in AC feats, Epic Dodge and Feint. You can even get crazy with all your extra feats and take Self Concealment! Also, if SD and Assassin aren't your bag, don't forget about Swashbuckler and Duelist if that fits your RP better. They give some really nice synergy for the investment.

Second, HiPs is a supernatural feat. It really shouldn't be open for everyone to acquire. Kinda like saying my Spirit Shaman 30 isn't tough compared to a Druid 30, but if you will just let me take Natural Spell so when I am Shapechanged..... some things are really just meant to be unique to that specific class even if it would be great for others, perhaps especially for that reason.

If hips is a supernatuaral feat and it should not be open for everyone to acquire maybe its a good plan to move SD hips up to level 8 so people cant 3 level dip it for hips any more?
Cous lets be honest here...When you give rogues the chance to take hips on level 10 or 13 or 16 wont make it easy at all for other builds to gain hips...As you would need atleast 10 level of rogue.

Hell no. SD HiPS can stay on level 1. The mechanical purpose of going SD as a rogue over Assassin is the fact that you become viable earlier.

[Bad Omens]

SD 3 levels simply opens up hips to every one and his mom giving hips on rogue level 10 or 13 doesnt.

Again, my argument is more from a RP standpoint. If every rogue can HiPs, than what is the point of Prestige Classes for sneaks? If you give every rogue that ability, you water down RP.

If you want to speak mechanically, you should take into consideration the two feats, Dodge and Mobility which must be taken to acquire Shadow Dancer but would generally be useless to a Rogue ordinarily. If you are saying Rogues would still need those feats, then that gives you a bit more credence. I still think it's a bad idea doing things for mechanics sake, without respecting the unique nature of classes. Where would the power grab end at that point?

[Sun Wukong]

I would like to request a look at the possibility of another way to gain HiPS, this ability is essential in PVE to rogue play at this game.. Its very useful in Role Play and can be amazingly just FUN. It is a high Fun Factor ability, and it should be.

In PnP, any source of concealment allows you to make hide check in plain sight. However, it doesn't change the fact that you can still be spotted if your hide skill roll is not high enough to beta the spot roll.

Now, it feels very unlikely that concealment granting spells would ever let you HiPS. This is not PnP, and arcanists are already good as they come, without free HiPS at the cost of one Extended Improved Invisibility or any other such spell. (Ghostly Visage for example.)

Nevertheless, there is a line of Epic Feats that see next to no use. Go check: Self-Concealment - with the requirements that come with the base game you can only get 40% concealment. And that is if you build for it. (Start with 20+ dexterity and save your Rogue bonus feats to epic levels.)

Thus, if you were to lower the dexterity requirement that the first feat could be taken at level 21, and perhaps add 'Self-Concealment HiPS' with the first Self-Concealment feat... You would get possible Rogue 30 builds with HiPS. This HiPS comes still late, and you are better off with Assassin or Shadowdancer levels to be honest. It will be struggle to level up unless you RCR to level 20 or something like that.

Anyhow, just saying the same thing year after a year.

[Face]

SD 3 levels simply opens up hips to every one and his mom giving hips on rogue level 10 or 13 doesnt.

Again, my argument is more from a RP standpoint. If every rogue can HiPs, than what is the point of Prestige Classes for sneaks? If you give every rogue that ability, you water down RP.

If you want to speak mechanically, you should take into consideration the two feats, Dodge and Mobility which must be taken to acquire Shadow Dancer but would generally be useless to a Rogue ordinarily. If you are saying Rogues would still need those feats, then that gives you a bit more credence. I still think it's a bad idea doing things for mechanics sake, without respecting the unique nature of classes. Where would the power grab end at that point?

SD 3 is what couses that...its SD that gives hips to every one and his mom and its not only rogues its a simple 3 level dip so wizards and weapon masters can pick it up , granting rogues the ability to pick hips at level 10 or 13 wont change that.
So...from a rp stand point i say every rogue that trains for it aka level 10 or 13 or 16 can pick up hips.
And agen saying oh noes every rogue can get hips now is moot as long as you can dip 3 levels of SD for it

[Valefort]

Simian the concealement feats requirements were dropped to 27 DEX.