Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

To fairly represent the admin position on this I want to be clear that it is "completely undecided." QC and devs have given objections in this particular area but the decision of what will happen to Rogue is still up in the air until I'm convinced the class is in a good place at 30 levels without needing to rely on PRCs for a healthy PVE strength.

this is curious because i dont think all the base classes are solid to 30. nor should they be in the 3.5 ruleset. why is rogue think it is special and needs improvement to qualify for this?

aaron22 wrote:this is curious because i dont think all the base classes are solid to 30. nor should they be in the 3.5 ruleset. why is rogue think it is special and needs improvement to qualify for this?

Most of them are in a decently playable (though not necessarily optimal) place at 30. Fighter 30 is not as good as it is with PRCs, but it's playable. Sorcerer 30 is not as good as it is with PRCs, but it's playable. Rogue is an exception to this (in fact possibly the only one remaining, or at least the worst), and the last time I tested a Rogue at level 30 I found it completely unplayable with rare exceptions via corner-sneak tomfoolery.

As far as "why?" it's essentially just because that's one of my module design goals. I want every class to be viable for play in our arena at 30 levels without multiclassing.

aaron22 wrote:this is curious because i dont think all the base classes are solid to 30. nor should they be in the 3.5 ruleset. why is rogue think it is special and needs improvement to qualify for this?

Druid 30 is solid.
Barbarian 30 is solid.
Warlock 30 is solid.
Ranger 30 is solid.
Paladin 30 is solid.
Bard 30 is solid.
Wizard 30 is solid (but 27 with 3 rogue or 3 SD is vastly superior).
Phantom 30 is solid (but 16, 19, or 25 is vastly superior).
Favored Soul 30 is solid (20 is vastly superior, a dip into EDM as well).
Cleric 30 is solid (very domain dependant. Can go between 5, 20, 30).
Sorcerer 30 is solid (but 6 is vastly superior).
Spirit Shaman 30 is solid (but 9-18 is vastly superior).
Man At Arms 30 is solid (but 25-26 is vastly superior).

Fighter 30 is "ok". Its not solid, but can hold up against regular mobs (but than again, most classes can). 8 or 12 Fighter is the best. 4 Fighter for some ranged builds.

Monk 30 is more on the trash end of "ok". Its AB is kinda garbage. It you took intuitive attack, its damage is garbage. Monk 20/Sacred Fist 7/Cleric 3 is a far better pure monk, even if you don't take the STR domain. But, that is pure enough.

Rouge 30 is pretty trash. You are stuck using bluff for the most part, and relying on wands for defense.

You can do some pretty cool things with all those feats a fighter 30 gets. Taking all 4 combat focus feats is very valid now. And you can become pretty versatile switching between combat modes. As with most classes, a dip makes the build stronger though.

Want rogue to work at pure lv30 as is for most of the player base?
Tone down epic content as felt needed, there is nothing wrong with the class as is imho.

The issues with the class are overall are related to the defenses and attacks some high level content have been given in order to counter, mostly other classes (read caster powerbuilds).
Sadly that influence the pure classes, perhaps foremost rogue, more then any of the powerbuilds those mobs were made to make fights/survival harder for.

Insane -Hide/MS areas not helping in the least.
This since all rogue builds they promote are either HIPS builds where the players use the broken HIPS mechanics to survive and/or spellcaster/thug fighter rogues.


Else give the class more fluff, while preparing for the epics to grow even meaner as a counter.

Balance, and counterbalance.

/M

Hear hear, nerfing some mobs is clearly in order

I can't solo the White Dragon so it clearly needs a nerf...

For the same reason that F30 is viable so is R30. It will be difficult to level, but with Hide in the Shadows they are perhaps more viable at 30 than a pure fighter is. In addition, there is a change in the works to remove the paralysis and replace it with 1% movement speed. This will effectively mean you still can't move (or you can, but so slowly as to make no difference), but you won't lose your dodge/dex AC. So now you can use HitS and prior to having it instantly activated at 21 you will retain your AC. Taking Dash or using armor with + movement speed will also help improve survivability to get some distance before using HitS.

Regardless, R30 is quite survivable and there is no desire to make it equal to or better than a build that mixes in Assassin, Invisible Blade, or any other number of PRC's. Rogue is a solid class with plenty of reason to dip, take 10 levels, 16 levels, 19 levels or even 21 levels (HitS becomes instant). Fluff is one thing, mechanical power increases are not warranted at this time. Nerfing content is a bad idea IMO as it is a NICE feature of this server that some area's are capable of being solo'd by appropriate level PC while others almost require a full party, such as Speartop. It'd be a real shame if all area's could be solo'd by any PC with little risk as D&D is a party based game and I like that there are some area's I can ONLY go when I am able to get a party of similar leveled adventurers to join me. It's something FUN to do and would be taken away if we nerfed them because some pure 30 classes can't solo all the bosses.

Valefort wrote:Hear hear, nerfing some mobs is clearly in order

Yeah. I've long said that PvE design is more a problem than class design.

Rogue perk, Open chests while in stealth.