Focused Discussion: Crafting

[Steve]

Chad, the carrot and mule metaphor is used to imply that what you wish to have is always there, beyond your reach, yet...you keep reaching for it. In the end, there is no reward, just the effort made.

It is a sad story, if you ask me.

Now, to say that if a Player achieves all the best gear for their particular toon, and then if the DM(s) do not provide them entertainment, then jeez, it seems that Player is just here to fulfill their selfish needs and once someone else isn't providing that for them, they'll log. Nice Player. Maybe they would be better off finding another means of self-satisfaction, instead of putting in effort to support a community-built RP experience, which actually requires everyone to be adding to the pool.

If the story stops for you when you outfit your Toon with uber epic gear and you're not catered to by the Gods, then I'd really question the motivation for gaming on BGTSCC in the first place.

Anyway, Crafting + Enchanting would be a boon. It took me years to acquire +3 gear that directly suited my Toon(s). Some of my best gear is still +3 gear, with a +1 or +2 addition. Like the Greater Bone Axe. Nowadays, I have a few +4 dodge boots—not extras—and 1 set of great gear for a monk, mostly thanks to an epic fail on DM TheVoids part were I stumbled into a Private Event and looted one of his prepared chests, and because of AC81, who simply gifted me a boatload of gear sometime ago when he attempted to quite the Server...but also Epicly FAILED at that! Hi AC, and thanks!

So what I'm saying is that even if Crafting is limited to totally customizing a fitted outfit and arms for any particular toon, at +3 max any aspect, THAT will be yuuuuuge, compared to even how things are now.

Then, let either the RIG or DMs provide +4 gear for those that earn it...whatever that means. Oh...we have Epic NPC merchants as well, so yeah...pretty much, awesome all around.

[chad878262]

Chad, the carrot and mule metaphor is used to imply that what you wish to have is always there, beyond your reach, yet...you keep reaching for it. In the end, there is no reward, just the effort made.

Not a perfect metaphor, and I would hope that any player understands that along the way it is not as if you don't have good stories to tell and equip a nice item or three. Point was and always has been that it is not the goal of this server (as it has been explained to me) to make it easy for a player to outfit their character(s) head to heel in epic gear. My point with the carrot was that once you have the very best equipment you can hope to obtain, what else is left for your PC when you are out adventuring? What can they be looking to get.

That said, I think we are arguing the same points against each other Steve, the RIG provides best items, but is woefully unpredictable... Avernus provides extremely good items as well, but most are very cost prohibitive and may not suit every PC. My opinion is that crafting can be worse than what you can get from epic vendors, so long as the pricing is reflective of what can be crafted and so long as it is better than the greater gear available from vendors it will still have a place with the players. If for no other reason than there isn't something better they have found or can afford (or they like using an underrepresented item).

[Calodan]

If the story stops for you when you outfit your Toon with uber epic gear and you're not catered to by the Gods, then I'd really question the motivation for gaming on BGTSCC in the first place.

I have to agree here. Having gear does not end the story. Just as not having gear does not end the story.

I think those that argue against having the ability to craft such items forget their own arguments at times on how RP is not dictated by gear and items and levels but then they use it as argument to not have gear because if the mechanical is not satisfied they leave.....which is it?

If a person leaves once they mechanically achieve in items on their PC what they wanted then that is their type of game play. How is this wrong? They may come back after deciding to go further with the concept of their PC. Flesh it out so to speak. I know I as a player strive for both. Items and RP.

[Valefort]

Having perfect gear is not the end but it is an end, it closes off one of the main reasons for adventuring. Of course it's not a sufficient reason to stop playing that character but that's one less reason to adventure and play.

[aaron22]

exactly cal.

you say so often you cater to many gameplay styles, but then tell someone they are wrong for abandoning a concept once they have achieved what they wanted... that is contradictory

[Wandering_Woodsman]

sighs

I was both hoping for and dreading this topic.

Allright, here goes.

Back in my days of Dasaria 1, they had a system that was pretty labor intensive. I don't remember all the details, but it went something along these lines.

Be aware, this used a system that was NOT dependant on NWN 1's crafting at all. Rather, it used a token system. Do a job correctly, you got a token or two as 'skill'. The more tokens, the better your skill. These couldn't be dropped, added to or anything. They could only be held in your bag. Additionally, all tools used to craft with had a finite craft limit. Eventually they wore out.

First, you had to gather your harvest tools, go out and get the raw resources. Iron from mining ore veins in various caverns, lumbering wood from stands of trees in one area or another, alchemical plants from some swampy lands, beast hides, you get the general idea.

Once you had the base materials, iron in this case (and a lot for one attempt, 3-5, maybe 10? Dunno anymore), you would then haul it all back to the crafting hall ( a secondary server dedicated to this and some other areas AFAIR) where you would then smelt down the ore into ingots using tools you bought there.. THen you processed some hides.

Then you would walk over to the anvil and actually work on making the item. With enough supplies and skill, you could potentially create a weapon. If you had essences (i think it was a nwn 1 item?) then you could use those to imbue the weapon and make it magical, but I think that required more skill then my character had, so I'm vague on that.

All in all, it was an intensive process that took time, effort, dedication and skill to pull off. Now you could certainly make some good things, but you had to actually focus your character on it. I THINK you could use some of your character crafting skills to help you, but again, it's been too long.

I suspect that this may be something that can be done (indeed, I'd wager there's a system already out there somewhere in the Net), but even if it's not THIS style, I personally already have a blacksmith chomping at the bit to craft. I'd wager that there are a LOT more of us also wanting to get our hands dirty.

[aaron22]

from the sounds of it. seems everyone is pretty much on the same page on what they want as an end result from crafting.

common merchant=worst
mudds=good
crafting=better
epic=much better
RIG=best

[amped]

I voted yes, but with a caveat. Since items never decay in NWN2, crafting permanent magic items will result in a saturation of the economy with the best equipment that can be crafted. You can take steps to limit the rate at which these items are created, but barring item loss to server crashes, the items will never be removed.

Because of that, I think that crafting should be limited to consumables, i.e. scrolls and potions (which we already have) and magical effects that consume charges. For example, you can't add an enhancement bonus to a weapon, but you can create a weapon that casts greater magic weapon for 1 charge per +1 enhancement.

This will serve two purposes. First, recharging the item will consume gold, acting as a gold sink to the economy. And second, it's my understanding that every time an item is recharged there is a chance that the item can explode, thus removing it from the economy and requiring a new item to be created and enchanted.

I would also say that the items to be enchanted should be player crafted, to make the crafting skills more useful. Perhaps a DC check to make a masterwork version of the item that can be enchanted. This system could be worked out later.

You make an excellent point, I definitely agree. Especially after looking at what 20k worth of gold can get a level one already. I would hate to see what it would effectively do to the player driven market, especially with the ability to craft rare items like +w/e mithral fp.

[NegInfinity]

I voted yes, but with a caveat. Since items never decay in NWN2, crafting permanent magic items will result in a saturation of the economy with the best equipment that can be crafted. You can take steps to limit the rate at which these items are created, but barring item loss to server crashes, the items will never be removed.

Because of that, I think that crafting should be limited to consumables, i.e. scrolls and potions (which we already have) and magical effects that consume charges. For example, you can't add an enhancement bonus to a weapon, but you can create a weapon that casts greater magic weapon for 1 charge per +1 enhancement.

This will serve two purposes. First, recharging the item will consume gold, acting as a gold sink to the economy. And second, it's my understanding that every time an item is recharged there is a chance that the item can explode, thus removing it from the economy and requiring a new item to be created and enchanted.

I would also say that the items to be enchanted should be player crafted, to make the crafting skills more useful. Perhaps a DC check to make a masterwork version of the item that can be enchanted. This system could be worked out later.

You make an excellent point, I definitely agree. Especially after looking at what 20k worth of gold can get a level one already. I would hate to see what it would effectively do to the player driven market, especially with the ability to craft rare items like +w/e mithral fp.

Actually, if people are concerned about power-creep, well, then crafted items can be made non-transferrable, or transferrable only once (from crafter to the buyer). Exclude them from muling, and boom - on a new character you'll have to create your gear again.

[Wolfrayne]

Honestly There are a lot of good ideas.

Crafting should require the materials and the craft feats/skills
Enchanting should require the spells and "slots" as many people have said.

Crafting should also cost gold.
Enchanting should cost XP as it takes part of your "power" to do so.

Perhaps some Custom feats that allow monsters to "drop" more hides/ores/crafting components.

The only other thing i ask is that items crafted should only be allowed to be renamed by the people who CREATE them... This would allow people to say "brand" items on the market.

[Calodan]

Having perfect gear is not the end but it is an end, it closes off one of the main reasons for adventuring. Of course it's not a sufficient reason to stop playing that character but that's one less reason to adventure and play.

That does not mean the server should not create a item crafting system either. I really feel like you are grasping at straws at this point because you do not want it in.

Also you did not answer my question. In fact I believe the server is ignoring that.

You argue that gear and mechanics hold no sway over RP and fun and replay of this server but then when we want to implement this you now say that gear and mechanics are important for replaying the game? I do not buy it.

To be clear I am personally do not need the gear to be EPIC but I do need it to be customizable. To be more useful to my PC in RP and in battle mechanically to an extent.

Honestly I like PaulImposter's idea of non-permanent enchantments. That really should be explored and allowed in my opinion to make a crafting system that makes Epic items for people. I mean you are going to have to re-enchant that stuff again and again so now we have gold sink and player economy. Nothing is perfect but I think that would be a good start maybe.

[AC81]

I liked an idea we had before in QC ... that of a 'point system' per item. I think the limit was 20 points and you assign points based on the level of enchantment. Something like 12 points for +4 EB, 15 points for +4 AC and stuff like that. It allows minor levels of customisation.

I think all items must come with EB/AC enchantment limits that match other enchantments. Just to stop divines/arcanes from making weapons/armour with no EB/AC bonuses and then buffing their items with GMW/IMA.

[Lambe]

I'd like to see consumables like ammo and kits to start with. These get used up, which grants the crafting mechanic more utility than anything permanent like gear.

Put more emphasis on component gathering to give the whole system added adventuring value. Mine this ore here, gathering that hide there, etc. Put these things where they make sense, like mines or caves for mining. Add smelting/refining/tanning/recycling to gain materials. Make use of trivial loot table items and trash.

Figure out how to add mundane bonuses without involving magic into the system, unless said bonus requires an enchanter. Make sure each subsequent enchantment has diminishing returns.

[Babuguuscooties]

I'd like to see consumables like ammo and kits to start with. These get used up, which grants the crafting mechanic more utility than anything permanent like gear.

Put more emphasis on component gathering to give the whole system added adventuring value. Mine this ore here, gathering that hide there, etc. Put these things where they make sense, like mines or caves for mining. Add smelting/refining/tanning/recycling to gain materials. Make use of trivial loot table items and trash.

Figure out how to add mundane bonuses without involving magic into the system, unless said bonus requires an enchanter. Make sure each subsequent enchantment has diminishing returns.

Just something to note: Would necessitating gathering things like ore, wood etc hurt non-str builds bc of their low carry limits? Like, if you are a DEX build and already have to carry healing kits but now you have to carry materials to make additional healing kits would it hurt those non STR builds to an unfair extent?

[Calodan]

I'd like to see consumables like ammo and kits to start with. These get used up, which grants the crafting mechanic more utility than anything permanent like gear.

Put more emphasis on component gathering to give the whole system added adventuring value. Mine this ore here, gathering that hide there, etc. Put these things where they make sense, like mines or caves for mining. Add smelting/refining/tanning/recycling to gain materials. Make use of trivial loot table items and trash.

Figure out how to add mundane bonuses without involving magic into the system, unless said bonus requires an enchanter. Make sure each subsequent enchantment has diminishing returns.

Just something to note: Would necessitating gathering things like ore, wood etc hurt non-str builds bc of their low carry limits? Like, if you are a DEX build and already have to carry healing kits but now you have to carry materials to make additional healing kits would it hurt those non STR builds to an unfair extent?

Not once the pack horse system gets implemented.........