ECLs Max Level

[Israe]

We only have ECL +2 races so max level 32, anyway that was a tongue in cheek comment. I'm not overly concerned by the ECL races, true they can be more powerful in the end but it's rather negligible in my opinion.

Says the guy that plays a Half-Elf!!!

That's like ECL -5 out the box, yo.

But, to the OP, its true that ECL races are more powerful, but you have penalties leveling up, plus, their SHOULD exist RP penalties, like non-acceptance and racism IG, but Players apply modern values to this Server, and thus NO DIFFICULTIES ONLY GOLDEN COOKIES FOR UOU AND ME!!!

Given how divisive prejudices are in American society today I can see how some people are sensitive to it even in a roleplay server... but I do not agree with it. Or rather, I agree with sensitivity irl, but in this server where it should not be an OOC thing I think it adds to the immersion if, for instance, drow are feared and hated by the surface dwellers.

Still, a lot of characters have been around for years it seems, and I imagine some of them have had experiences that changed their character's perspective - Even on drow. That's called character development. It should happen over a period of time.

2 perm strikes, being attacked and KOS, the penalties are there...

[Dagesh]

I'd be shocked if the server was changed. So why say anything?

For one, I love civil, spirited conversations on the forums. For another I see ECL classes more for PvP use. That doesn't bother me because I believe PvP can provide rich RP and should be used to advance stories.

What if base races w/o ECL could reach 32? 31?

---

As for drow penalties, I do see the danger in being on the surface. The same could be said for someone going to the UD as well so it's not exclusive to any one race.

[Deathgrowl]

Balance doesn't work that way. The ridiculously weak flame SLA, darkvision and a bit of fire resistance is all that makes up for the +1 ECL on a Fire Genasi. +2 Int and -2 Charisma equals out just like it does with +2/-2 stats in other races.

No one would bother playing +1 races, let alone +2.

[NegInfinity]

Since the max level on BG is 30 and since a race has ECL, shouldn't the max level for a race w/ ECL be 30 minus ECL?

For example, max level for Aasimar should be 29.

edit: Otherwise we are creating characters that could potentially me ECL 33 (see Svirf ECL + 30).

No, it doesn't work this way.

BGTSCC very heavily punishes you for chosing a ECL race. The worst thing you could possibly do on this server is playing a ECL race with XP penalty. Give it a try.

Edit:
ECL means effective character level. So a ECL +1 PC at 29 is effectively 30. Where is the balance in allowing someone to effectively gain level 32 when most other classes are limited to 30?

ECL does not mean you're level 31. Ecl adjustment simply indicates that game designers decided that because you have higher stats, the universe now hates your character in particular. Meaning you take more xp to level up you get less xp from all sources (on bgtscc), and that you need to fight tougher monsters if you want to get anywhere. You get no extra skillpoints, no extra feats, nothing. You also get one less feat than a human, and one less skillpoint than a human per level. In addition to that you now have to deal with with favored classes.

Basically, the server is balanced around non-ecl races, and the easiest to level character is human. Leveling a ecl race is more difficult and more time consuming. The harder the ECL, the more difficult and time-consuming it is to level up the character.

What if base races w/o ECL could reach 32? 31?

Will be abused to get two extra feats if level 31 is reachable. Probably will be possible to get at least 3 if level 32 is reachable.

Also, you'll now have people with CL31 and CL32 respectively. Bad idea.

--edit--

Balance doesn't work that way. The ridiculously weak flame SLA, darkvision and a bit of fire resistance is all that makes up for the +1 ECL on a Fire Genasi. +2 Int and -2 Charisma equals out just like it does with +2/-2 stats in other races.

No one would bother playing +1 races, let alone +2.

I play ECL races, but in general, yes, playing a ECL on bgtscc is not recommended, and playing a ECL with XP penalty is a good way to feel truly miserable (character will be getting single digit xp, and instead of 1 xp he or she will be getting 0).

[Sun Wukong]

Spell Resistance is a powerful innate ability, and people still want to play their Drow characters.

But yeah, lot of the characters have rather rubbish abilities. Some of these racial abilities do not even translate all that well from PnP, for example the Darkvision Half-Orcs get. In this game it gives a glowing aura that paints everything white for you - in PnP it lets you fight in complete natural darkness without a hitch, while an elf with the low light vision would be more disadvantaged. (Going against that 50% concealment.)

[Storm Munin]

Well, if this was implemented would we be allowed ECL +8 races and templates?

That would make it worth it imho.


The server would be challenging as a endstate level 18 rogue trickster, even if you play a succubus right?

/M

Edit:
ECL +2 with xp penalty from class split isnt that bad, considering we have forever to level those toons.

[NegInfinity]

Well, if this was implemented would we be allowed ECL +8 races and templates?

That would make it worth it imho.

The server would be challenging as a endstate level 18 rogue, even if you play a succubus right?

/M

I played ECL+8 and ECL+10 monsters on Sigil.

It is playing NWN on "dark souls on very hard" difficulty. At level 1 you need to fight CR9 monsters with one attack per round and something like 10 hitpoints.

At level 13 you'll be dealing with epic level monsters, except your saves will be garbage, number attacks will be low, anybody will be able to dispel your magic (-8..-10 casterlevel, remember?), and you will have very low hitpoints.

This results in funny situation when a supposedly tough creature is a glass cannon that can be smashed into pieces by almighty humans and all-powerful kobolds. Some combinations are barely workable, but in most cases it is exercise in patience and figuring out which areas correctly match your innate defenses, so your almighty baatezu won't get murdered by a rat.

[Babuguuscooties]

I play ECL races, but in general, yes, playing a ECL on bgtscc is not recommended, and playing a ECL with XP penalty is a good way to feel truly miserable (character will be getting single digit xp, and instead of 1 xp he or she will be getting 0).

But it's true what I said, isn't it? You may have to endure worse experience gains on average, and slower leveling overall, but Aasimars make for the best of any class that is wisdom or cha based.

Tieflings excel at playing HiPS mages, don't they?

My question is... Is this a major advantage, or a minor one?

Can a level 30 human beat a level 30 drow if they are nearly equal in build?

I'm going to assume so, given that pvp in particular deals with so many "what-ifs" and varying scenarios.

[Sun Wukong]

Human wizard can beat a drow wizard, however, the drow wizard does have the advantage due to their innate spell resistance. (Both will have saves so high that the spell DCs do not really matter anymore.)

[NegInfinity]

Tieflings excel at playing HiPS mages, don't they?

My question is... Is this a major advantage, or a minor one?

Minor. A tiefling will qualify for shadowdancer faster, but the loss of bonus first level feat can hurt quite a lot.

A human can grab Spellcasting Prodigy and Stealthy at 1st level, for example.
Also, a tiefling wizard will need 3000 xp to get to level 2.

--edit--

Either way, the server is up, so everybody is free to just make a ECL character and see how "powerful" they are. Bonus points if the character has XP penalty.

[chad878262]

Minor. A tiefling will qualify for shadowdancer faster, but the loss of bonus first level feat can hurt quite a lot.

Nope. If going W26/SD4 you won't qualify to take your first level of SD until 18 due to the skill point requirements (hide/ms/tumble are all cross class). I suppose you would qualify faster if you went W24/PM3/SD3 or something to open up some of the skills though. The main issue with non-Tiefling, non-Drow, non-Air Genasi HiPS mage is maxing INT while also getting 19 DEX. You either end up min/maxing with crap for other stats or you end up with less than optimized INT.

Edit: I have a level 30 Tiefling I leveled from 1 (though he is a rogue type, not a caster but I did previously take a HiPS mage to 30, but started him at level ~14 or so from an RCR). Leveling an ECL 1 character is not so bad. Leveling a drow in the underdark isn't so bad either, though when you reach epics it can get a bit more frustrating unless you have a decent group to team up with. Of course 0 ECL is easier in the early levels, but once you reach ~10th level the difference is rather arbitrary/unnoticeable (IMO of course).

[NegInfinity]

Nope. If going W26/SD4 you won't

(-_-)
I'm obviously talking about DEX 19 requirement which tieflings can satisfy at level 1.

You either end up min/maxing with crap for other stats or you end up with less than optimized INT.

You can't eat a cake and still have it. Assassin wizards are always an option, and stat requirements were never a problem for Myhun Kren or Tommy Slickboot Bones.

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

The problem is that some of the races are too powerful. Take Aasimar, for instance. +4 net to ability scores. No penalty. ECL +1 race. Tieflings as well, their net gain is +2 but they get +2 to two of the most versatile ability scores (INT and DEX) while taking a hit on the most common dump ability - Charisma. They also get some bonuses to skills and elemental resistances, coupled with good favored class, darkvision and darkness.

That's why you have tons of Aasimars and Tieflings running around.

[chad878262]

(-_-)
I'm obviously talking about DEX 19 requirement which tieflings can satisfy at level 1.

Ok, but you stated they can qualify 'faster' which is not the case... That is dependent as much on what PRC's / classes you take as anything else, since pure WIZ can't qualify before level 18. In any case I wasn't trying to refute that Tieflings (and drow and air genasi) make the best HiPS mages, of course they do. I was just calling out that without multi-classing they still have as long a road as anyone else before they finally get HiPS.

You can't eat a cake and still have it. Assassin wizards are always an option, and stat requirements were never a problem for Myhun Kren or Tommy Slickboot Bones.

Not sure who those folks are, but I didn't say this should not be the case, was just calling out (again) that you don't HAVE to be one of the +DEX AND INT races to be a HiPS mage, you just have to understand what sacrifices you'll have to make if you want to go with Human or some other race. In any case point is while losing a bonus feat at 1 hurts, it can be taken care of by going the middle ground and making a Strongheart Halfling to get a bonus feat and +2 DEX while having the same INT as a human. In the case of a HiPS mage I would argue that Strongheart is the next best choice after Tiefling, Drow and Air Genasi. After that any race with either + INT or + DEX aren't bad choices so long as they don't have a penalty to the other (Wood Elf probably is not a great choice, for example).

[PaulImposteur]

In any case point is while losing a bonus feat at 1 hurts, it can be taken care of by going the middle ground and making a Strongheart Halfling to get a bonus feat and +2 DEX while having the same INT as a human.

They also get an additional +1 AC due to small stature. I'm in full agreement, let's tag the Hins with ECL penalties! Whose with me!?