Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

If the dwarf was masked how do you know it wasn't a grey dwarf? That's an Underdark race...

More to the point, if anyone is masked it could be an underdark race... There are human sized, elf sized, dwarf sized, orc sized and gnome sized races that are specific to the Underdark.

I have experienced folks disregarding attempts at RP in both the Underdark and on the Surface, being both friendly and antagonistic. The simple fact is some folks don't RP or only RP with specific individuals. It is not a surface thing, it is simply seen more on the surface because there are far more players with surface toons in game in every time zone. If there are more individuals present in a given space there is a greater chance of one of them being antisocial, but that doesn't mean there aren't those in another space that are the same way, you just see them less because there are less people.

I also agree that the individual in question may have been RP'ing his character by running away with no interaction. While some players do use this as an OOC means to escape PvP type RP that doesn't mean ALL players do so. This is why a few posters have stated it's best to just pretend it never happened and move on. After all, if they run by as if you aren't there, then by default they weren't actually there for your character (does something truly exist if you have no means of interacting with it?)

chad878262 wrote:If the dwarf was masked how do you know it wasn't a grey dwarf? That's an Underdark race...

He didn't have a mask on. Pale skin and orange beard.

More to the point, if anyone is masked it could be an underdark race... There are human sized, elf sized, dwarf sized, orc sized and gnome sized races that are specific to the Underdark.

Any Underdark race with the exception of Svirfneblin would meet the surface goer with a degree of skepticism and/or hostility.

I also agree that the individual in question may have been RP'ing his character by running away with no interaction.

In that instance, "running away" and not "rping an out" are synonymous.

I guess we're stuck with surface PCs being able to roam freely without consequence in the Upperdark. It's almost as if I walked into the Silver Rose guild hall unmasked and ignored everyone who tried to speak with me and then walked out. I'm pretty sure I'd get in serious trouble if I attempted something like that. Hell, NPCs outside Beregost will scream bloody murder if you're a drow and approach the gate - but lord forbid a drow having an issue with a human in the Upperdark.

Hypocrisy

NegInfinity wrote:

Argumantive wrote: You ignore the drow talking to you? He will

If we're talking about dwarf in question... You can't kill something you can't catch. Or land a hit on. Just because the drow thinks he is the supreme race, it does not mean he will win.

And no, this isn't my dwarf, and I've never seen him.

Argumantive wrote: but remove OOC protection from retarded lorebreaks.

And turn Upperdark into a pointless constant PVP zone. In 2 days you'll have level 30s ganking on low level cahracters, most likely with that dwarf on the frontline. This is a great way to ruin the map.

I'd rather not see this kind of thing.

It is up to DM to decide what is a "retarded lore break" and what isn't.

I also seriously dislike the recent tradition of trying to solve IC problem OOCly on forums. Grab five more drow and set up an ambush for that dwarf. Ask DM for help if you have to. Set a roadblock. If he can't pass he'll have to interact with you. There's so much potential for fun, RP opportunities, etc.

Instead, all those opportunities are wasted, and the only result is another petition on the forum "we must impose more sanctions!" Or something.

Just what the hell, people.

You do see that, you are proposing exactly what I am right? Yo ucan't catch him, good. but a mage casting bigby/phantasmal kiiler, is in range. But setting the ambush you speak of, doing anything -IS- the ooc retarded protections I am talking about. Because, news flash, I can;t use anythign on him right now, even if he will be parading an elf running naked with a lolth symbol on his nether region.

As of pointless PvP, I disagree, as I suggested, as an area accessible to everyone, make it a better reward, and open Pvp. if your lvll 15 char can't go there solo, get some friends, get some help. in the end, PVP zones makes much more sustainable conflict than just waiting for DM's to throw plot at you. It generates plotlines and Rp, why limit it? The underdark and the uperdark are areas Surface PC's should dread, as much as drow dread the surface. and not let OOC rules, make it possible for players to do as they want, while shitting on the lore, because I am sure as hell won't be allowed to go into bg and start killing dukes for fun.

As it stands, as a surface player, I can go to the upperdark, grind and do as I want, with no consequences to my actions, in one of the most dangerous zones on Toril, wait what? If A drow is KoS above gorund, no reaosn why a surface race won't be KoS below ground.

Rinzler wrote:

NegInfinity wrote: You're jumping to conclusions here. There's no reason to think they were avoiding RP because of PvP defense. You decided that yourself and for no reason too.


Dude, last time I met your character, it was masked to the teeth. How the heck are people supposed to know what you are?


Upperdark is a neutral zone, so surfacers there are not Kill on sight. This is part of the server/pvp rules. If you venture deeper, though....

1. It's absolutely a conflict defense mechanism. I've seen it enough times.

2. A short humanoid in the Underdark wearing a mask. I guess we better summon Albert Einstein to roll a lore check to assume what race he is.

3. Yes, it's neutral now but it needs to change. The surface has plenty of places for you to go. We're pretty limited down here.

4. Venture deeper? Where exactly? There's no where deeper to go that has any merit.

5. Why is it I NEVER see someone from the surface in S'shamath, but regularly see them in Mist Lake. It's just an Osquip ride away and S'shamath Law states you can't attack surfacers.

8. The Upperdark is nothing more than a loot playground update for surface PCs. It's about time the Underdark claims it as its domain.

9. I'm sorry if this makes your joy ride through the Upperdark more difficult.

10. Get a DM to set up a road block? You're joking right?

11. Open PvP would be between surface and UD PCs only. UD/UD or Surface/Surface would remain exactly the same. You don't like it? Stop going to the Upperdark - it's not meant for you anyways.

Rinzler wrote:

chad878262 wrote:If the dwarf was masked how do you know it wasn't a grey dwarf? That's an Underdark race...

He didn't have a mask on. Pale skin and orange beard.

More to the point, if anyone is masked it could be an underdark race... There are human sized, elf sized, dwarf sized, orc sized and gnome sized races that are specific to the Underdark.

Any Underdark race with the exception of Svirfneblin would meet the surface goer with a degree of skepticism and/or hostility.

I also agree that the individual in question may have been RP'ing his character by running away with no interaction.

In that instance, "running away" and not "rping an out" are synonymous.

I guess we're stuck with surface PCs being able to roam freely without consequence in the Upperdark. It's almost as if I walked into the Silver Rose guild hall unmasked and ignored everyone who tried to speak with me and then walked out. I'm pretty sure I'd get in serious trouble if I attempted something like that. Hell, NPCs outside Beregost will scream bloody murder if you're a drow and approach the gate - but lord forbid a drow having an issue with a human in the Upperdark.

Hypocrisy

I guess I was confused...

Rinzler wrote: In that instance, "running away" and not "rping an out" are synonymous.

"rp out" belongs to pvp.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3170
If the idea was to initiate PVP, then fleeing indicates the end of the encounter. After which point you are supposed to avoid each other for 24 hours unless consent is given.

Rinzler wrote: I guess we're stuck with surface PCs being able to roam freely without consequence in the Upperdark. It's almost as if I walked into the Silver Rose guild hall unmasked and ignored everyone who tried to speak with me and then walked out.

In situation where you ignored everyone in silver rose, one of the people present would submit a screenshot to a DM and have you captured and hanged with a permastrike. Same would happen if a human paladin decided to suddenly hang out in one of the forbidden areas near sshamath and have a chat with drow guards.

Your concerns would've been valid, if the surfacers were running in tunnels surrounding sshamath area unmasked and looting chests there. This is also outlined in PvP rules I linked earlier. However, Upperdark is not really a drow territory, and surfacers are not KoS there.

- A participant of a PvP session, or the prelude to a PvP session, who leaves the map where the PvP is/would be taking place is considered to have ended the encounter, and both the leaving participant and the other party are subject to the post-PvP rules (see PvP Aftermath).

- Underdark players on the surface, and surface players within the tunnels of the Underdark, who have been identified are considered to have consented to PvP and may be killed on sight. The exceptions are for the city of Sshamath and the Upperdark, where all involved are still required to follow normal PvP rules.

Either way, my personal advice would be to get used to it. Being ignored happens constantly, and on some occasion I had people say hello to a masked figure with two devils in tow, smile and walk away.

Also, it is entirely possible to make a pale red bearded duergar with color override addon enabled, though this is something that would need to be reported to a DM.

Argumantive wrote: You do see that, you are proposing exactly what I am right?

I'm saying that you can't force people to RP with your character using rules.

If they don't want to interact with you, and you attempt to force it, they'll simply log off instead. There's nothing you can do about it. They aren't obliged to interact with you, period.

If there's six of you forming a roadblock, however, the dwarf most likely will be forced to stop and chat and something interesting might happen because of it. And if you involve a DM, you might have an actual gate blocking a tunnel. Before saying "but I can't do anything against nudist elves in upperdark", I'd suggest to at least give it a try first.

Argumantive wrote:PVP zones makes much more sustainable conflict

They don't.

They devolve into "whose build is better" contest, which is pointless and generates zero rp value. It is pure mechanical superiority. That's the reason why I tend to avoid all kind of "combat tourneys". At some point people there start jumping back after recently being killed.

This is not the kind of thing I play there for. Not to mention that PVP usually evolves into a big OOC mess due to hurt feelings.

Besides, I think some of the old-old-timers should be able to tell you stories about those old times where drow used to gank on people near wyrm crossing.

NegInfinity wrote:
Also, it is entirely possible to make a pale red bearded duergar with color override addon enabled.

This is on par with the rest of your logic. You've resorted to color overrides to enhance your argument. At this point I should probably give up.

There's absolutely no valid reason for the upperdark not to be open PvP. (Other than surface PCs who want their loot runs to be as seamless as possible). It does encourage RP encounters. There becomes a reason for surface PCs to actually go beneath surface other than a loot run.

1. Paladin Escorts
2. Diplomacy Missions
3. Missions to Avenge the Dead
4. Underdark Scouts (Cavestalkers, Rangers, Rogues who can put their 100 H/MS to use)
5. Assassins who can actually be assassins.

As of now, here's the only reason to go beneath the surface:

1. Easy Loot (oh and by the way we can just ignore Drow while we're down there and avoid all conflict)

The safe "base" should be S'shamath. Anything in between should be free game with the exception of Mist Lake. It's not even that much to ask - it takes three areas to get to S'shamath (which is absurd in its own right).

Titan Fist --> Black Rock --> Kro's Labrynth --> Mist Lake (Which doesn't count) --> S'shamath.

NegInfinity wrote:

Argumantive wrote: You do see that, you are proposing exactly what I am right?

I'm saying that you can't force people to RP with your character using rules.

If they don't want to interact with you, and you attempt to force it, they'll simply log off instead. There's nothing you can do about it. They aren't obliged to interact with you, period.

If there's six of you forming a roadblock, however, the dwarf most likely will be forced to stop and chat and something interesting might happen because of it. And if you involve a DM, you might have an actual gate blocking a tunnel. Before saying "but I can't do anything against nudist elves in upperdark", I'd suggest to at least give it a try first.

Argumantive wrote:PVP zones makes much more sustainable conflict

They don't.

They devolve into "whose build is better" contest, which is pointless and generates zero rp value. It is pure mechanical superiority. That's the reason why I tend to avoid all kind of "combat tourneys". At some point people there start jumping back after recently being killed.

This is not the kind of thing I play there for. Not to mention that PVP usually evolves into a big OOC mess due to hurt feelings.

Besides, I think some of the old-old-timers should be able to tell you stories about those old times where drow used to gank on people near wyrm crossing.

Your roadblock Idea can be ignored all the same, my only suggestion here is that you can simply initiate hostilities openly in such a case? They log off, good, they still ost and are gone, your IC goal of getting rid of them achieved.

As of whose build is better, I would ask, what is the problem of letting combat specialized characters actuyally shine in the only area they are supposed to shine? Does anyone get annoyed when someone with maxed skills in everything in DM events uses it to his advantage? Builds are a part of the game, so yes, if the PC is less optimized for combat, he should not prevail the same as a barbarian should not be able to solve the mysteries of the wave or whatnot.

The whole butthurt culture of people unable to keep IC as IC, should not be encouraged but eradicated, as far as my personal opinion goes. The whole OOC mess for PvP encounters, is an exagaration, thre are plenty of decent players here whom I had the pleasure of having conflicts with, who keep IC as IC, and they should be taken as the example, and not the whiny minority who cannot accept their characters having faults or losing.

As of Drow gankig people in the Wyrm crossing, it would be the same as ganking people in Sshameth by surface players, there is a big difference between PvP And outright metagaming.

In the end, you are right, you cannot force someone to interact with you, but you sure as hell can let a character react IC to shenanigans without OOC protection allowing the lore breaking.
As it is now, the whole culture is to let people to do whatever they want, without consequences unles a DM is luckily present. Which in my PERSONAL opinion, is both immersion breaking and abusingly cheaty at the same time.

Rinzler wrote: This is on par with the rest of your logic. You've resorted to color overrides

Sigh.

Color overrides are allowed, as far as I'm aware, although people are asked to keep colors lore-compatible.

Anyway. My point was that: you're not entitled to have people interact with your character. RP interaction is a two way street. You can't force someone to interact with you or to interact with you the way you want.

Argumantive wrote: Your roadblock Idea can be ignored all the same,

(-_-)
If you get a DM attention, they can spawn an actual impassable obstacle through which you can't run. A drow roadblock can be a fun mini-scenario for all parties involved.

Argumantive wrote:what is the problem of letting combat specialized characters actuyally shine in the only area they are supposed to shine?

The problem is that mechanical power does not equate RP value or meaningful RP interaction. You can have a powerbuild roflstom the whole underdark, with zero story and no character behind it. That's what PVP zones achieve. The value of BG is character interaction. It is when you stop a random dwarf in the tunnel and chat them up, there's a character behind them. The point is, this is a medium-rp server, so people here are for different things. And you can't really force your values upon others.

Personally, if we're going to allow Surface folk down into the upper-dark, and it's not KOS. We should award the same privilege to UDers.

There's far less areas for someone in the UD, and it tends to have lower populations. Why are we punishing a minority population of the server? Personally, KOS anything I find silly. I understand why it'd be found necessary in some instances.

However, if we're not going to treat both sides equally with KOS, then we should get rid of it, and let RP or lack there of determine if PvP is warranted between to players.

Also the KOS rule is pretty silly, considering almost none of the players I've experienced on either side of the conflict want to PvP gank immediately, generally they want to RP the tension, experiencing a dangerous encounter.

KOS has never attributed more/better RP the server, and it never will. It is a mechanical thing, and has nothing to do with RP. That is the only mechanic that literally allows others to 'force their RP' on others as described.

PaulImposteur wrote:Personally, if we're going to allow Surface folk down into the upper-dark, and it's not KOS. We should award the same privilege to UDers.

Both Surfaces and UD players have the same privilegies in Upperdark. Neither is KoS there, and both should obey PvP rules. This is in PvP rules.

NegInfinity wrote:
Both Surfaces and UD players have the same privilegies in Upperdark. Neither is KoS there, and both should obey PvP rules. This is in PvP rules.

You completely ignored this:

There's far less areas for someone in the UD, and it tends to have lower populations. Why are we punishing a minority population of the server? Personally, KOS anything I find silly. I understand why it'd be found necessary in some instances.

DROW LIVES MATTER

NegInfinity wrote:Both Surfaces and UD players have the same privilegies in Upperdark. Neither is KoS there, and both should obey PvP rules. This is in PvP rules.

My point was to extend the reach of the UD, so we can find meaningful character interaction at the surface. Just as Surfacer RP can come down to the UD with little trouble. With how few areas there are, the Upper-Dark is basically one of the very few places for a UD character to explore, while the Surface Toons have tons of areas.

The KOS rules truly bring nothing to the table. I've never seen it generate RP, and I rarely see anyone utilize the rule. The only thing the rule creates is a loop-hole to grief people trying to RP. Fortunately I've never seen someone use it in such a way.

If the argument for KOS is for Lore purposes, then all of the Upper-dark should be KOS (Which I do not want). Because it isn't 'neutral grounds' in lore, and we all know it. Once again, PvP or conflict should be generated via RP, not some weird rule. The PvP rules stand up on their own without this.

Rinzler wrote: DROW LIVES MATTER

Lives don't matter. All hail Tharizdun!

Rinzler wrote: There's far less areas for someone in the UD, and it tends to have lower populations. Why are we punishing a minority population of the server? Personally, KOS anything I find silly. I understand why it'd be found necessary in some instances.

IIRC in the time before time drow have been allowed to raid the surface. This lead to a big mess and some sort of painful conflict due to constant pvp. And as a result the surface and UD were separated by nigh-impassable Netherese Maze and travel between locations was strictly forbidden and nigh impossible. (I think I tried to make it through netherese maze roughly 30 times myself. Died every time. You need a powerbuild. Or several). A year or two ago the restriction were relaxed with the introduction of rockrun map, where both races were allowed. Till that time, UD and Surface were for all practical reasons completely separate and couldn't interact with each other at all, aside from certain shady organizations having drow connection.

For the details regarding past mess you'll need to ask someone like Wirg or maybe even an older player, because I don't know details and can only retell what I heard myself. From what I heard, the initial reason for that was constant PVP mess due to drow raids, and constant lore-breaking encounters like dark skinned red eyed white haired strangers suddenly appearing near FAI campfire to give everybody a hug in the name of goodness, light, rainbows and puppies.

The reason why Upperdark is non-KOS area most likely is lore-based - because it is a transitional area between both UD and Surface. A middle ground. The reason why Drow are KoS, on the surface is because they're evil monsters of the legend, stuff of nightmares. The reason why surfacers are KoS is because they're good-aligned scum unworthy of living.

Also this is most likely done to encourage lore-approriate behavior. The server is severely lacking lore-appropriate racism, distrust and witchhunts (towards orcs, drow, tieflings, warlocks). Too many people succumbed to lore-inappropriate modern ideas of loving every living thing, even the objectively living ones.

Of course, I'm not a member of the staff, so words of Maecuis or anyone with a green name will overrule anything I'd say.

So, in the (AFAIK) end the decision is based on a mess that happened in the past. You registered, well, in 2017? Well, in this case you lack perspective and knowledge of the past situation. It isn't about "ud being punished". The UD population, afaik, was almost always small, and UD was usually a ghost town.

Sure, you can request new areas, or maybe even make them (I think there's a section for scripters/map makers/etc), but the reason why objected to your post because I largely saw it as unfair.

People avoid each other all the time, for various reasons. It is just something that happens all the time and you get used too. If you roll a surfacer character, you'll simply see it happening more often.

Also... UD being small has its benefits. On a surface area it is entirely possible to run around without meeting anyone with a full server for hours. Or to log on saturday only to see that 90% of the server is in a DM event on a "dm_map_youcantgetthere_haha" map which is utterly inaccessible and you're late. This is the usual thing.

So, getting upset about one dwarf running by.. I think this isn't the right mindset. In the end, neither you nor the dwarf have any special claim on the transitional area, and people can't figure out if you're drow when you're completely masked. So I suggested to react to IC events ICly with character actions. Which is what the whole drow ambush thing was about.

Also, hey, did you know that you can assassinate people here? With DM permission. File an assassination contract on the dwarf. This is also in PVP rules.

PaulImposteur wrote: Also the KOS rule is pretty silly, considering almost none of the players I've experienced on either side of the conflict want to PvP gank immediately, generally they want to RP the tension, experiencing a dangerous encounter.

I would like to adress this point. There is no tension when there are no consequences.

I would ask, why if I go and start murdering NPC's it's fine to be retalitated agaisnt, or go murder Drow in Durlag, it's fine. But if a drow sees me running around in the caverns I should be offered a way out?

In the end, if you do not want to be faced with hostility, do not leave your safe zones, but if you do decide togo somewhere there SHOULD be hosility, why should others break char so that YOU can have your RP out, and force your RP on them?

A necromancer flaunting undead, or summoning demons in the face of a paladin, is forcing RP way before the paladin bashed his head off. Risk should be real, and not just attributed, that's my exact point in this thread. A player should not be forced to break char for OOC rules, in the palce he should be safe from such shenanigans.

Rearding KoS, it is never forced. A player playing A KoS Sight is aware to the consequences, he/she chooses to take said risk, I see no reason why pure OOC safety nets should be provided.

NegInfinity wrote:
The reason why Upperdark is non-KOS area most likely is lore-based - because it is a transitional area between both UD and Surface. A middle ground. The reason why Drow are KoS, on the surface is because they're evil monsters of the legend, stuff of nightmares. The reason why surfacers are KoS is because they're good-aligned scum unworthy of living.

There's no way it's lore based. Yes, drow are a monster race. Which should apply when a surfacer encounters them whether it's the surface, upperdark, or underdark.

NegInfinity wrote:
Also this is most likely done to encourage lore-approriate behavior. The server is severely lacking lore-appropriate racism, distrust and witchhunts (towards orcs, drow, tieflings, warlocks). Too many people succumbed to lore-inappropriate modern ideas of loving every living thing, even the objectively living ones.

Yes, so let's open up conflict between the surface and underdark. The mechanical rules of the Upperdark contribute to the lack of lore-appropriate racism. You have a couple drow murder some surface goers I guarantee you'll see a spike in drow racism.

NegInfinity wrote: Sure, you can request new areas, or maybe even make them (I think there's a section for scripters/map makers/etc), but the reason why objected to your post because I largely saw it as unfair.

Why would we need to request new areas? Below-Surface areas already exist that could be shifted mechanically to the Underdark domain. It's ridiculous that surface dwellers have equal rights in the Upperdark as it is.

NegInfinity wrote:
People avoid each other all the time, for various reasons. It is just something that happens all the time and you get used too. If you roll a surfacer character, you'll simply see it happening more often.

You shouldn't be able to avoid a monster race in their domain.

NegInfinity wrote:
Also... UD being small has its benefits. On a surface area it is entirely possible to run around without meeting anyone with a full server for hours. Or to log on saturday only to see that 90% of the server is in a DM event on a "dm_map_youcantgetthere_haha" map which is utterly inaccessible and you're late. This is the usual thing.

C'mon dude. Are you serious? I feel at this point you're trolling. Go to the FAI any time and you'll see AT LEAST 1 PC there.

NegInfinity wrote:
So, getting upset about one dwarf running by.. I think this isn't the right mindset. In the end, neither you nor the dwarf have any special claim on the transitional area, and people can't figure out if you're drow when you're completely masked. So I suggested to react to IC events ICly with character actions. Which is what the whole drow ambush thing was about.

Again I fail to see your logic.

1. The upperdark shouldn't be considered "transition" mechanically.
2. Drow should be the first instinct when you're below the surface. The fact that you think otherwise bewilders me.
3. I did react IC and the player used OOC mechanisms to avoid conflict
4. Drow ambush? By your logic we could establish a Drow ambush and the same person can just waltz by like it doesn't exist.