Crusader Holy Sword

[Kaybrie]

Essentially, the Crusader sacrifices all of its spell casting to do 3 more damage, on average, than a casting paladin who isn't using Holy Sword.

I think the kit could use a damage buff through the weapon specialization feats to solidify its role. Even then, it wouldn't move ahead of a casting paladin on the power scale; it just wouldn't lag quite so far behind.

I also agree with RL's post, seeing the math laid bare doesn't even really do it justice, since Crusader is holding out for level 30 whereas a standard paladin is free to multiclass out as PM pointed out to become even more powerful then RL's number crunching. I'd like to see a pure crusader to be at least on-par with what a pure paladin of similar build is capable of.

[chad878262]

Pure Paladin can solo the balor naked. It's been stated before, but just to reiterate, none of the new classes/PRC's/Kit's we introduce are going to be built to be that powerful. The math shows me that a pure vanilla paladin gets a bit more AC and can spike damage when it has holy sword up, but let's be mindful that Paladin has very few 4th level slots... Holy Sword being up at all times is a +5 weapon with on-hit dispel and 2d6 damage vs. evil, plus whatever you find on your weapon of choice. Crusader has consistent strong damage and can still get AC more than high enough to suffice. As Valefort stated, we'll give it a few months, but I would not expect Crusader or any other new class to be created with the power to solo the 2nd toughest boss on the server.

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[RedLancer]

Pure Paladin can solo the balor naked.

That's a paladin with planar turning. "Naked" in this case is nothing more than a cosmetic gimmick. The balor was turned and completely helpless. Please don't present this as evidence that paladins are powerful.

[Steve]

Pure Paladin can solo the balor naked. It's been stated before, but just to reiterate, none of the new classes/PRC's/Kit's we introduce are going to be built to be that powerful.

That's kinda funny, Chad, because for a loooooong time, both Paladin 30 and Ranger 30 have been touted as the near-perfect balanced Build, that stands as a meter for custom additions to BGTSCC.

As well, it has been said that FvS and Bard and even Cleric can go above and beyond the Paladin/Ranger 30, and that has always been the "power" that is not looked to replicate.

Again—and I've said this many times before—what is the Standard you are working from? And, has that now changed in the last X time frame?

If vanilla Paladin 30 is no longer the Standard...than what is? Do you really think Players want to play a weaker option, than what otherwise is available?

Because I do think that a Two-handed Paladin 30 with Divine Shield up with EDM flashing, takes away all the spark that a Two-handed Crusader 29/Paladin 1 has to offer.

And let's not forget that, unless I'm missing something, the Crusader misses out on Divine Grace...which is like the Death Knell waiting for a Crusader at any caster Boss.

[RedLancer]

Crusader retains Divine Grace. They just lose spellcasting.

[PiaMango]

A 1Paladin/4Crusader/14Fighter/7WM/4Monk still seems better non casting paladin than crusader.

Crusaders get more spike potential with smites but a WM gets way more consistent damage and while a Crusader has more base AC a WM can turn on CE and use a shield token to get the same AC while still doing more damage. The builds would be more comparable if it was viable for a crusader to do a 3-4 level dip in another class.

[Valefort]

Crusader bonuses are permanent thus it needs to be slightly inferior to a buffed paladin, that's the logic here. After 30 minutes the Crusader will still be doing well while the vanilla paladin will start to lose steam and will slowly turn into a mediocre fighter. You also skip the tedious buffing phase as you're always ready.

If you don't value long term power much and you don't mind buffing then Crusader is not for you.

Regarding dips and how the last feats are spread it was done to discourage tumble dips but perhaps placing Crusader defense V at 26 (instead of 27) will be done. In a couple of months, if need be

[chad878262]

Pure Paladin can solo the balor naked. It's been stated before, but just to reiterate, none of the new classes/PRC's/Kit's we introduce are going to be built to be that powerful.

That's kinda funny, Chad, because for a loooooong time, both Paladin 30 and Ranger 30 have been touted as the near-perfect balanced Build, that stands as a meter for custom additions to BGTSCC.

As well, it has been said that FvS and Bard and even Cleric can go above and beyond the Paladin/Ranger 30, and that has always been the "power" that is not looked to replicate.

Again—and I've said this many times before—what is the Standard you are working from? And, has that now changed in the last X time frame?

If vanilla Paladin 30 is no longer the Standard...than what is? Do you really think Players want to play a weaker option, than what otherwise is available?

Because I do think that a Two-handed Paladin 30 with Divine Shield up with EDM flashing, takes away all the spark that a Two-handed Crusader 29/Paladin 1 has to offer.

And let's not forget that, unless I'm missing something, the Crusader misses out on Divine Grace...which is like the Death Knell waiting for a Crusader at any caster Boss.

The math shows me that a pure vanilla paladin gets a bit more AC and can spike damage when it has holy sword up, but let's be mindful that Paladin has very few 4th level slots

Who said Crusader was far weaker than Vanilla Paladin? Valefort said it better than me, vanilla paladin is stronger with buffs up, but claiming Silverbeard comes with the limitation of 9 minute duration (18 extended) and Holy Sword is 3 minutes. Vanilla Paladin can be partially buffed for 30 minutes, stronger buffed for 9/18 and fully buffed for 3. Cavalier retains it's strength in both damage and AC eternally, regardless of rest or ability to rest.

[PiaMango]

It just seems the benefits after getting 1pal/4crusader (for divine might/shield) aren't better than going to other classes like fighter, man at arms, AK, WM.

The benefit for going full crusader is WD +6 AC, Crusader Strike, Epic Weapon Focus, Holy sword and Smite.

The WD AC is replicable by a tumble dip (+2 AC) and shield spell (+4) ac. I have like 5 of those tokens on my paladin current, they're cheap irrc. A tumble dip is usually a -1 BAB.

Crusader Strike is +3 Damage
Epic Weapon Focus is +4 AB
Assuming you have a +4 weapon to begin with holy sword is +1 AB and +8 Damage
That totals to +5 AB and +11 Damage.

12 Fighter getting Epic Weapon Focus/Specialization & Mastery gives
+6 AB
+8 Damage

So for 20 levels (1p/4crusader, 12 fighter, 3 tumble dip) we get effectively the same bonuses of a 1p/29crusader missing 3 damage (which requires 16 wis), smite burst potential but the fighter gets access expose weakness & detection skills.

[PiaMango]

What I would like to see is a feat like

Crusaders might - Level 19 Crusader
After casting Divine Might gain the effect of Divine Shield.

This will add to the flair of the class of having a viable (AC wise) 2hand build that doesnt require much maintenance. It would help with the AC issue while 2handing, reduce the amount of buffing needed before bosses and reduce the reliance on turn undead charges.

There was talk about a crusader being less reliant on buffs than paladin but I see a crusader being more reliant on turn undead charges thus also being susceptible to running out of steam, this would help with that.

[mrm3ntalist]

Why are you guys comparing the AC shield bonus with a shield wand or clickable? Nothing will ever beat in theory the armor from IMA, Shield or the immunities from Death Ward. In practise they are not dependable because they can run out and they can be easily dispelled.

Why compare this kit with other classes. This is a paladin kit. Compare it with a paladin, not a spirit shaman or an arcane gish. It is normal for spells to give higher bonuses. They dont last for ever. You cant expect us to give a kit permanent bonuses more than they can get from spells? That will just never happen.

Regarding the kit in specific, it was designed to make a viable two hander, non casting paladin. Just that. For me, it makes very powerful high CHA, low STR great smiter paladins and good turners, without the need to buff at all. Anyone that played a caster paladin, with the liimited spell slots, can appreciate this.

[RaiderOne]

I really like the concept of this kit as a 2-handed paladin is such an embodiment of the fantasy character.

My biggest fear is that the kit is very lackluster with its best abilities spread thinly over 30 levels, and an almost mandatory ability score and no-brainer feat selection. Would all crusaders end up pretty much the same? That said, i do think the amount of abilities it has is a fair trade for the spells, though the maximum number of spells is reached much earlier than the crusaders potential.

The kit also has a Wisdom requirement of 13, but all you get is the bonus damage - which is very low with its +3 cap and crushing 1/10 progression. Considering Wis was primarily used for spells was this choice made because the devs thought the class would be too powerful? You can already play a lower wisdom normal paladin if your planning to multiclass and not attain the high level spells.

I do think the previous posts suggesting a reducing cooldown by level on holysword would help the class not feel like such a grind to power. Have there been many players using this kit as I would love to hear what they think about it.

[mrm3ntalist]

I really like the concept of this kit as a 2-handed paladin is such an embodiment of the fantasy character.

My biggest fear is that the kit is very lackluster with its best abilities spread thinly over 30 levels, and an almost mandatory ability score and no-brainer feat selection. Would all crusaders end up pretty much the same? That said, i do think the amount of abilities it has is a fair trade for the spells, though the maximum number of spells is reached much earlier than the crusaders potential.

The kit also has a Wisdom requirement of 13, but all you get is the bonus damage - which is very low with its +3 cap and crushing 1/10 progression. Considering Wis was primarily used for spells was this choice made because the devs thought the class would be too powerful? You can already play a lower wisdom normal paladin if your planning to multiclass and not attain the high level spells.

I do think the previous posts suggesting a reducing cooldown by level on holysword would help the class not feel like such a grind to power. Have there been many players using this kit as I would love to hear what they think about it.

A class kit is by definition something more specialized. Its not a class or a PRC. If you dont want to play a two hander paladin, then this kit is not for you. Make a typical paladin or use the other kits. Building wise, there is still variety. The crusader will still make good STR or EDM or CHA paladins. What will be the same is that you will have to fight as a 2hander and that you cannot cast spells.

Your comment about feats applies not only to the paladin base class, but to most base classes - if not all. There is always room for variety but like many other classes, some feats are must have.

[Kaybrie]

I really like the concept of this kit as a 2-handed paladin is such an embodiment of the fantasy character.

My biggest fear is that the kit is very lackluster with its best abilities spread thinly over 30 levels, and an almost mandatory ability score and no-brainer feat selection. Would all crusaders end up pretty much the same? That said, i do think the amount of abilities it has is a fair trade for the spells, though the maximum number of spells is reached much earlier than the crusaders potential.

The kit also has a Wisdom requirement of 13, but all you get is the bonus damage - which is very low with its +3 cap and crushing 1/10 progression. Considering Wis was primarily used for spells was this choice made because the devs thought the class would be too powerful? You can already play a lower wisdom normal paladin if your planning to multiclass and not attain the high level spells.

I do think the previous posts suggesting a reducing cooldown by level on holysword would help the class not feel like such a grind to power. Have there been many players using this kit as I would love to hear what they think about it.

PM me or send a tell in game if you wanna talk shop on Crusader.

I play Laura Blake, and I'm doing the crusader thing.

I think RedLancer is as well if you wanna talk about the kit is.

[RedLancer]

Ability is still one-use only after December 19 update.