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Re: Make shapechange great again
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:28 am
by Sun Wukong
No, it doesn't.
As for
Wild Shape, equipment really shouldn't transfer bonuses. But way back when Monk/Druids were largely the only druids on the server for the obvious reasons of transferring that buffed up 42+ Wisdom ability score to 16+ points of extra AC.
Thus the Dragon Shape that had the base AC of 28, would become 44 with Monk wisdom AC. After applying Tortoise Shell for +9 AC, the shape would have total of 53. (I think you used to be able to get +12 Natural Armor with Tortoise Shell...) Oh, Cat's grace gace +2 AC for a total of 55. Not to mention that with Natural Spell you do not really need AB as you can just sit inside a Storm of Vengeance/and other AoE spells... Thus Improved Combat Expertise gave +6 AC for free to a total of 61. Oh, you could easily grab Luck of Heroes for another +1 AC and total of 62. Wait, you can also have Tumble as class skill now, so that gives +3 AC to a total of 65...
So yeah, Dragon Monk/Druids used to be able to get AC of 65+... While retaining the ability cast spells. Oh, wait, it could be higher if they bothered to get wands of Improved Mage Armor for +6 AC, and wands of Shield for another +4 points of AC, so...
Dragon Monk Druids with UMD used to be easily able to get ACs of 75+...
And yeah, you could squeeze few more points more still.
Thus there was the ban on Monk/Druid multiclass, and many Druids (Monk/Druids) were quite unhappy about it. Thus, they got the following perks:
- Your highest enchantment bonus to armor or bracers will transfer as an enchantment bonus to AC (+4, or +6 with wand of Improved Mage Armor)
- Half of your enchantment bonus (rounded down) to your shield will transfer as a shield bonus to AC (+2 or maybe +4 with the Shield Wand)
- Your highest deflection bonus will transfer as a deflection bonus to AC (Halo of Sand spell for +4 AC)
- Your natural bonus will transfer as a natural bonus to AC (Tortoise Shell +9 AC)
- Dodge bonus does not transfer to AC
- Multiple instances of ability enhancements do not stack (You can cast +4 spells, and one +12 one)
- For a given skill only the highest bonus is kept
Thus currently...
Druid can have AC of:
29 (Elder Air Elemental)
+1 (Luck of Heroes)
+3 (Tumble from multiclassing)
+6 (Improved Combat Expertise)
+2 (Cat's Grace)
+6 (Improved Mage Armor?)
+4 (Shield wand?)
+9 (Tortoise Shell)
+4 (Halo of Sand)
= 64
So I guess there could be discussion on whether Shapechange/Polymorph Self should have similar item transfer taking place... It doens't really change anything for the arcanist who got their buffs naturally, but I guess it is a topic for the Shaman to consider.
Re: Make shapechange great again
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:57 am
by the_flame_of_anor
Thanks for the reply and the historical context of wild shape!
So for Shapechange, the final AC of the new form is calculated by:
Form's base AC (basically 10 modified by size and any dodge bonuses) + natural AC (given in the BG wiki's new Shapechange table) + AC bonuses from spells on caster prior to shifting (such as Cat's, IMA, Shield and Shadow Shield). Correct? I presume effects like haste, displacement and mirror images persist to the shapechanged form?
And the form's AB is calculated by:
Caster's BAB + form's strength modifier + AB bonuses from spells on caster prior to shifting (such as Heroism and Bull's). Correct? GMW and Keen doesn't carry over unless the form carries a weapon.
How about saving throws? I reckon it's the form's base + any bonuses from spells on caster prior to shifting (such as Resistance and Heroism)?
Hmmm from the looks of it, it now does look like the revamped system gives us forms with weaker numbers. But I'm still very tempted to try the dragon form! Still, as a sorc with no way (currently) to swap out Shapechange if it doesn't work out, it's quite a gamble hence I need to be very sure of the numbers. Else the dragon-shifted-mage will just be a nice (and costly!) RP eye candy.
Re: Make shapechange great again
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:02 am
by NegInfinity
Sun Wukong wrote:
In D&D proper you can actually still cast spells if you meet the spellcasting requirements. There is a topic about it in the mechanics forum
Speaking of which a polymorphed wizard should be able to cast spells without verbal and somatic components. There's absolutely no reason why he/she wouldn't be able to.
I think people are going overboard with trying to "prevent" exploits from happening, and that seems to be doing more harm than good. For example, the whole "do not equip items while casting" thing is getting really annoying. Would be a good idea to take more relaxed approach to things.
Re: Make shapechange great again
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:07 am
by Endelyon
On BGTSCC we won't be allowing casting while shapechanged at the current time. It was already disabled, and is listed as an example of a mechanical exploit DIRECTLY in our server rules. An ASF was added so that people couldn't use client extension commands to bypass the lockouts we've already put in place.
To be blunt, we also don't plan on re-enabling monk AC while shapechanged and the removal of this was vetted and discussed by Quality Control to close a number of issues.
We may be re-enabling summons while Shapechanged. Some of the other complaints we are trying to solve, but this system is currently a WIP, please be patient.
Re: Make shapechange great again
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:46 am
by Steve
Steve wrote:And, there is the difference of Nachti's Fire Giant having 13 DEX, Sun's having 11 DEX, and mine having 9 DEX.
I hope there is time available to find out why 3 different ability sets are experienced, and what are the actions causing the difference.
Re: Make shapechange great again
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:53 am
by Endelyon
Steve wrote:Steve wrote:And, there is the difference of Nachti's Fire Giant having 13 DEX, Sun's having 11 DEX, and mine having 9 DEX.
I hope there is time available to find out why 3 different ability sets are experienced, and what are the actions causing the difference.
I'll flag this up on the dev thread, if I had to guess it may have something to do with dynamic creature scaling/randomization but I'm not 100% sure.
Re: Make shapechange great again
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:05 am
by Steve
When my Spirit Shaman shifts to Fire Giant, it always—so far doing it 3 times—ends up with 9 Dex. I can try some other random options with gear and spells not used, but otherwise it appears pretty consistent.
Re: Make shapechange great again
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:55 am
by Sun Wukong
I cast Animalistic Power, for +2 DEX. (Base form has 9 dex, buffed up as has 11.)
I assume you didn't cast Cat's Grace, so you were stuck at 9, and Nachti did and got 13 dexterity.
But yeah, my Fire Giant was missing two points of AC anyhow.
Re: Make shapechange great again
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:38 pm
by GholaMan
Just to clarify shaman/monk cant really solo most of the high level bosses on the server they have too many immunities/DR/regen that the damage you deal simply isn't enough. If you used an exploit to cast spells in shapechange yeah probably. But I never did that, so no, there was never any soloing of bosses of equal CR. In any case it appears once again I am wasting my time, ill have to contemplate how I am doing to change the RP of my character.
Re: Make shapechange great again
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:23 pm
by Steve
Sun Wukong wrote:I cast Animalistic Power, for +2 DEX. (Base form has 9 dex, buffed up as has 11.)
I assume you didn't cast Cat's Grace, so you were stuck at 9, and Nachti did and got 13 dexterity.
But yeah, my Fire Giant was missing two points of AC anyhow.
So, does this mean that Items with Ability Modifiers DO NOT transfer over to the Shapes, only magic buffs? Example, a +3 DEX item will not modify the Shapes DEX, but Cat's or Animalistic will?
If true, then again, Shapechange/polymorphing is losing out A LOT when compared to Wild Shape:
Any other bonuses from items will transfer, but not weapons
Re: Make shapechange great again
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:00 am
by Sun Wukong
Steve wrote:If true, then again, Shapechange/polymorphing is losing out A LOT when compared to Wild Shape:
I suppose you could say that a Spirit Shaman/Ranger is losing a lot out on Shapechange/Polymorph. Sorcerers and Wizards have access to a lot of AC spells that they can just cast, such as Improved Mage Armor for +6 armor enchantment, Shield for +4 shield enchantment, Spider Skin/Shadowshield for +5 natural armor. The only thing the arcane spell book doesn't grant is the deflection bonus on armor class.
Rangers can get +4 deflection AC, +5 natural armor AC.
Spirit Shamans can get +4 deflection AC, +9 natural armor AC.
All classes can have Cat's Grace for +2 AC if they want.
Re: Make shapechange great again
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:53 pm
by Nachti
- I think one reason why druids get bonus AC in wildshape is that in DnD exists an item called Wild clamp which allows items to work while in wildshape. This doesnt exists for shapechange.
- Wildshape is a class feature. Shapechange is a spell "everyone" can use. They dont need to be the same in every aspect.
- When buffed with cats grace, Fire giants show their Dex AC not as magical. Same might apply to animalic power. Dunno why. Default is 9, with cats = 13.
- Yes, magical buffs transfer when polymorphed/shapechange. Items with +stat do not.
- Keen and Magic Weapon buffs should carry over, if its noted in the form's statistics at the wiki page. Some forms carry a weapon but dont have this property. Its due a bug I still have to figure out.
- Saving throws are calculated like on a normal player. Base Save + Stat modifier + Spells such as heroism.
- Flurry of Blows in conjuction with shapechange/polymorph hasnt been discussed yet.
- The Hydra got haste + flurry of blows to simulate +3 attacks gained. In a future update I might be able to include it into the BAB script. The hydra has a size/collision issue, I still have to find the proper values for her.
- I'll replace the clay golem with iron golem as requested. Magic Immunity will be fixed this time (though due balancing the form might not have its old AC value).
- Some forms have weapons, some have natural weapons. I balanced each form against other forms. These forms without a weapon have usually 28+ STR, an AB/Ench bonus or on hit effect to make up for it. If I make greater fang endure into shapechange it would cause an inbalance. On the other side its something a groupmember that might out with.
- Summons will be allowed during shapechange.
- It has been reported that epic transmu focus only grants +1 AC. Will be fixed.