Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Incarnate wrote:Currently the Palemaster isn't really all that viable on a wizard, as the BAB is very low.

PM is fantastic for a wizard...

It grants a lot of useful immunities, it boosts your fortitude saves, it grants summons, and even provides additional points of AC.

Incarnate wrote:Currently the Palemaster isn't really all that viable on a wizard, as the BAB is very low. It is possibly to reach BAB21 but it would be at a sacrifice, and as far as I know that the absolute minimum for a level 30 to be able to hit.

BAB would only be a concern for a gish. If wizards needed higher BAB to be viable, they'd have higher BAB.

Deathgrowl wrote:

Incarnate wrote:Currently the Palemaster isn't really all that viable on a wizard, as the BAB is very low. It is possibly to reach BAB21 but it would be at a sacrifice, and as far as I know that the absolute minimum for a level 30 to be able to hit.

BAB would only be a concern for a gish. If wizards needed higher BAB to be viable, they'd have higher BAB.

Not necessarily, but if they don't need higher BAB, then what would be acceptable BAB for a Wiz/PM?

Well, most of my wizard builds end up at 15 BAB. I never try to hit anything in melee anyways. Why would I? My offense comes from spells. And you very rarely meet something with so high touch AC that your 15 BAB + Greater Heroism and whatever dexterity modifier you might have isn't enough for your RTA spells. And when you do, you have other spells.

I have, for instance, a wizard16/palemaster10/archmage4 drow that works excellently.

Deathgrowl wrote:Well, most of my wizard builds end up at 15 BAB. I never try to hit anything in melee anyways. Why would I? My offense comes from spells. And you very rarely meet something with so high touch AC that your 15 BAB + Greater Heroism and whatever dexterity modifier you might have isn't enough for your RTA spells. And when you do, you have other spells.

I have, for instance, a wizard16/palemaster10/archmage4 drow that works excellently.

Am curious, how does rta work?

From the wiki it is:

Attacker: 1d20 + base attack bonus + bonus stat (see above for type) + attack bonuses
Defender: 10 + Dexterity bonus + Dodge AC bonus + Deflection AC bonus+ Size modifier

If so, it really seems to favor the attacker?

Marathados wrote:

Deathgrowl wrote:Well, most of my wizard builds end up at 15 BAB. I never try to hit anything in melee anyways. Why would I? My offense comes from spells. And you very rarely meet something with so high touch AC that your 15 BAB + Greater Heroism and whatever dexterity modifier you might have isn't enough for your RTA spells. And when you do, you have other spells.

I have, for instance, a wizard16/palemaster10/archmage4 drow that works excellently.

Am curious, how does rta work?

From the wiki it is:

Attacker: 1d20 + base attack bonus + bonus stat (see above for type) + attack bonuses
Defender: 10 + Dexterity bonus + Dodge AC bonus + Deflection AC bonus+ Size modifier

If so, it really seems to favor the attacker?

Have to consider a miss is a completely wasted round (spell or blast). It's not something commonly used besides warlock, sorc and wizard. If a fighter misses an attack he's got 5 more. Warlock missed on his blast and that's it for the round.

Deathgrowl wrote:Well, most of my wizard builds end up at 15 BAB. I never try to hit anything in melee anyways. Why would I? My offense comes from spells. And you very rarely meet something with so high touch AC that your 15 BAB + Greater Heroism and whatever dexterity modifier you might have isn't enough for your RTA spells. And when you do, you have other spells.

I have, for instance, a wizard16/palemaster10/archmage4 drow that works excellently.

So if you can get away with a total BAB of 19-21-ish (unbuffed) on a PM, your RTA's should hit quite often. Getting a good RTA could be achieved by having high dex, or items that increase dex.

So which Necromancer would be stronger, the one with Pale Master or the one without?

Depends on your play style. Personally i think with is stronger because of the pale master summons, immunities and ac.

Also consider hips mage...CL27 unless you get arch mage, Shadow adept, or another cl increasing prc, but hips can make playing a caster so much easier.

chad878262 wrote:Depends on your play style. Personally i think with is stronger because of the pale master summons, immunities and ac.

Also consider hips mage...CL27 unless you get arch mage, Shadow adept, or another cl increasing prc, but hips can make playing a caster so much easier.

So putting 3 levels of Phantom wouldn't be a bad idea, it would be cost efficient, considering you'd need a lot of points invested in skills plus two feats to be able to get HiPS from SD. Phantom would net you 3 times invisibility, poison use and 2d6 sneak attack and wisdom to ac bonus.

So for instance a Wiz / RW / PM / Phantom - could be quite powerful? With PSC CL could be 27.

Shadowdancer would be better, as Ghost Step can be seen through with See Invisibility, and True Seeing, and Blindsight...

But Phantom will work too.

Shadow dancer would be horrible to qualify for on red wizard since requires human... i had a W26/SD4 that was fun, but he was tiefling...

You can start with 18 dexterity and intelligence... all your other stats will be 8 though.

Shadowdancer is a detriment to DCs. If you go a shadowdancer mage, you're not likely to be able to rely on DC spells.

Palemaster is a highly defensive PRC because of the immunity to crits, the increased fortitude and the +6 stackable natural AC. It also has the best long-duration summons apart from druid companions. They are absolutely amazing.

Is it "stronger" than an alternative necromancer build? That depends on where you want your strength. It doesn't have the highest DCs. You get that from a combination of shadow adept, bloodmage and archmage or alternatively red wizard in there somewhere. But shadow adept is another of those PRCs that sacrifices power elsewhere to be absolutely amazing at its special field. So it's not necessarily "stronger" in the bigger picture.

A recently a discussion got me thinking about a:

Cleric 10/Hierophant 10/Shadow Adept 10... Base caster level varies for school of magic, etc...

10 (Base)
+ 11 (Wisdom)
+ 3 (Epic Spell Focus Necromancy)
+ 2 (Shadow Magic User)
+ 5 (Epic caster Bonus)
+ 0 ~ 4+ (Advanced Divine Spell Power, could be higher)
= 31 ~ 35+

You will also add your spell level on top of that.

Thus you can cast those 300 point Harms with DC of 37 ~ 41+.