How higher difficulty might encourage OOC behaviour.

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NegInfinity
Posts: 2450
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:24 am

Re: How higher difficulty might encourage OOC behaviour.

Unread post by NegInfinity »

Hoihe wrote:If you do not boil things down to the problem points, you'll get lost in details as you end up trying to balance everything. It's better to focus on the key problems, then think about the lesser issues.
No. flame of anor/zirvoden and valefort perfectly pointed out the problem.

By trying to "boil down" the problem you reduce it to an incorrect model which is a caricature of reality and incorrectly assume what the key problem is. This is what I was trying to explain talking about models and mentioning alice in wonderland logic errors. He worded it way better.

Details are important. Reality is not a mathematic formula. Do not boil things down - you'll set yourself up for incorrect conclusions.

And honestly, as valefort correctly said trying to overreduce things to a series of kx + b equations indeed gives impression that you're trying to either throw dust in eyes or attempting to bedazzle. It does not create a good foundation for any sort of discussion or dialogue. No offense.
MrPsion
Posts: 149
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:30 am

Re: How higher difficulty might encourage OOC behaviour.

Unread post by MrPsion »

Formal logic looks quite a lot like math though this thread could use more upside down letter As if we're going that route
Sun Wukong
Posts: 2837
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:05 pm

Re: How higher difficulty might encourage OOC behaviour.

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

This server has existed for such a long time that its past is fundamentally alien to the present. We could seperate the server history into different time periods that are almost as distinct as historical time periods from stone age to renaissance. Well, perhaps it is a slight hyperbole, but I think historical context is relevant here - because there were the days long ago without the 3-by-20 rule, when the stock NWN2 melee mobs filled the server.

Before the '3-by-20' rule, there were many players that actually leveled up their characters based on in game interactions. I recall one fighter learning a little bit of magic by hanging out with the Weave Masters before they were the Weave Masters. But without the rule in place you could also create builds such as human Rogue 2/Fighter 1/Cleric 1/Favored Soul 26 that gets a lot of feats for free. Builds that could be argued to have it all since they got the fighter bonus feats and proficiencies, cleric for Divine Might and the domain feats, rogue for evasion and the expansive list of skills. There was a desire to curb powerbuilding, and it came at the expense of role-playing. Thus you have to plan out your character not to violate that 3-by-20 rule.

It is also the reason my post count keeps going up so fast. People need to plan out their characters... because of a server rule.

The current challenge rating, or difficulty, of the server is more of a symptom, rather than the cause of the requirements listed on the first page.
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.
Sun Wukong
Posts: 2837
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:05 pm

Re: How higher difficulty might encourage OOC behaviour.

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

Hoihe wrote:You MUST pre-plan a build before you even play the character, and carefully optimize it even if an "RP build" to ensure it hits certain numbers.
This is not entirely true for three base classes: Fighter, Wizard, and Warlock.

A fighter just needs to choose a weapon and pick the associated Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats and all the remaining feats could be used for whatever else. 'Death' upon a failed will save could prompt them to take Iron Will as an example. Struggling to find enough equipment could lead him to pick the feats that improve the suit of heavy armor they already have. Interactions with other players could help him decide which combat styles he should pick. The character built in this way is not the most optimized, but it can make do well enough in a clear majority of the areas. In a way a human fighter could start out with 13 in STR, DEX, WIS, and CHA, while CON and INT could be 14. If you keep increasing strength on every level up, you are just -1 or -2 on the AB/Damage department compared to a fighter that started out with the more common 16 strength. It is hardly a difference that breaks the build in the long run.

A wizard could do something similar, they just need to pick at least one school of spells to focus on. For example, my character is a Transmuter, so he will focus on Transmutation first and foremost. But you will also have quite a number of feats to spend on other things, which you could spend on whatever as inspried by the many other casters you encounter on the road.

And finally, we have the warlocks. Even if a warlock character had no more than 8 in all their ability scores, this warlock character would be able to reach level 30. Warlocks have an infinite source of damage through Eldritch Blast dice progression. They can just keep on blasting, and blasting, and pick their feats and invocations according to their own fancies.
Hoihe wrote:Even if you roll a new character with absolutely no adventuring experience, or a character that loathes magic, you are forced into using consumables en-masse during early game to kickstart yourself.
This is not true in my experience. Usually my melee characters only need to buy a new suit of armor, alongside with a mundane heavy shield, and a weapon to get their AC to 20~ish. Then they can head to the CR0 areas and find some loot.

Alternatively, few spells for AC and a Heavy Crossbow also does wonders over distance.
Hoihe wrote:You are encouraged to research on forums for "How to play.", and complaints of difficulties are met with "Learn to play" (the game). You are encouraged to possess OOC knowledge and employ tactics born from said OOC knowledge to succeed.
With a fighter, all you need is a new suit of armor, a shield, and a weapon. Then you can just point and click to earn those experience points. It is not OOC information to buy equipment, if your character starts out without equipment.

As for other classes, there might be a learning curve, but I imagine that usually asking for help on the forums gets you that help.

Moreover, your character can butt his head at a problem until he discovers what works as a solution in character. It is how I have learned to navigate on this server... Through many, many trips into the Fugue. (I do loathe the experience penalty on death out of sheer principle of it, even though I should know better to avoid unneeded risks by now...)
Hoihe wrote:When playing a blaster, you are encouraged to metagame the NPC spawn rates, locations, the fact that you won't get overwhelmed by mobs even if you run into unknown sections of the dungeon (for your PC, not for your as a player). You are literally told, if complaining about the inefficiency of blasters on this server, to round up a ton of mobs at your feet and cast AoEs at them. If this is not a purely OOCly motivated tactic executed purely in an OOC manner, I don't know what is.
Actually it is more of a real-world approach than what you think. You try a solution and see how it works, and based on the results, you formulate a plan of action that works best.

Now, in this environment, there are many limitations imposed by the game engine itself. You will not always have that full balanced party to fill out the singular flaws of your own character. But what is even more important to consider is how the game takes place in real time without the ability to pause the game to consider your options. Thus while blasting singular spells at singular targets over great distance might initially sound like a smart idea, it is not really smart in any setting with a finite set of resources, such as spell slots.

Warlock does not operate on the premise of a finite set of resources, which is why Warlock is the best 'elemental' blaster you can have on the server.
Hoihe wrote:You are encouraged to take UMD on every character you play, even if it makes no sense at all. To not do so is to cripple yourself and prevent participation in high end content.
With my current 'primary' character, I went for many, many, RP based choices that actually gimp my character.

I can list some of the flaws right here; I have 3-4 entirely wasted feats, the end AC of my character is -8 points lower than what it could be and should be for the 'high end' content, I entirely lack UMD, my spell selection is actually restricted by RP-preferences, and I have not even maximised my spellcraft and my concentration skill is only now starting to catch up. Oh, and I would be mechanically better off if I switched one of the classes to another.

Yet, I would not say that my character is prevent from participating with high end content. In fact, a large enough group of level 30 commoners could probably just beat up the big bad Balor with nothing but sticks and stones. Perhaps it would be more accurate to state that there exists content a character is not able to solo - but then again, you do not really have to. The weekly quests are the easiest way to level up in the late epics, and you could just fish, or perhaps talk at that campfire. You do not need to mechanically optimized to solo the White Dragon and the Balor to reach level 30 - it will help - but it is not necessary.
Hoihe wrote:You are encouraged to OOCly discriminate your party members due to XP penalties from too wide level ranges.
I have never understood that to be honest. Sure, the experience per kill might take a hit, but most likely the party will get so many kills that you are still far out earning what you would get from soloing.

Oh, I only OOC:ly discriminate against Angel and Undead Summoners! Got to bear that BMX bandit pride! :lol:
Hoihe wrote:You are encouraged to reach the next level before checking out new areas to mitigate XP loss.
It is both true and not entirely true. There are spells like invisibility, and these days it comes in potion form too. You can use that to check new areas and you could always try teaming up with whoever you stumble upon.
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.
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