Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Sun Wukong wrote: That's another 'spotter rogue' statement right there. Thus, I would love to hear the argument behind it.

I didn't say "better rogues", I said that those races are objectively better in general.
That -2 CON hurts a lot, elves don't get amazing racial abilities like dwarves, or free feats like Humans or Halflings (Stronghearts) and Gnomes combine bonuses from both dwarves and halflings.

The only exception are Wild Elves and those get -2 INT, which hurts anything skill-related.
No one is making a Rogue Wild Elf. Unless you're doing it for the RP. And even that isn't a typical Wild Elf class.

A big, big, unique racial advantage for Elves? Keen Senses.

Sun Wukong wrote: In NWN2, it is literally just constantly active search mode.

Yeah so? It's still a very fitting mechanic, lore-wise.

Sun Wukong wrote: That is the random Flaming Fist 'GUARDSMEN' people trained and tasked with guarding with eyes wide open - and my former Spirit Shaman without this PRC had even higher detection without even wearing the Fist Uniform.

Yeah, random guards of the city. And they got the unique racial detection ability of elves because... they have good eyes.
So you're telling me that a human Flaming Fist guard and an elven Flaming Fist guard should have had the exact same detection capability (-/+ 2 skill points).

Yeah, I strongly disagree with that. Ignoring all RP reasons to pick an elf, Keen Senses is a BIG draw to the race.
And that big draw and bonus is tied to their unique lore. I don't want to see that given away as a free feat, Rogue-only or not.

You want a Rogue that is as good as an Elf when it comes to detection and Search? Make an Elven Rogue.

Sun Wukong wrote: Once again, Rogue 10+ builds, show me the spotter Rogue 10+ build that makes you dread the possibility so much.

It doesn't have to do with Rogue builds, it has to do with taking away a big, unique, racial ability of elves and giving it for free because.... reasons.
I disliked it when the Flaming Fist PrC did it, and I dislike it now.
It's an Elf mechanic/lore reason, not a Rogue build reason.

If the sole reason is: "I want to take away a unique elven feature so I don't have to click the Detect button with my Rogue all the time", then I disagree with it.

Archaos wrote:I didn't say "better rogues", I said that those races are objectively better in general.
That -2 CON hurts a lot, elves don't get amazing racial abilities like dwarves, or free feats like Humans or Halflings (Stronghearts) and Gnomes combine bonuses from both dwarves and halflings.

The only exception are Wild Elves and those get -2 INT, which hurts anything skill-related.
No one is making a Rogue Wild Elf. Unless you're doing it for the RP. And even that isn't a typical Wild Elf class.

A big, big, unique racial advantage for Elves? Keen Senses.

Favored Class of Elves:

• Sun Elf (-2 CON, +2 INT) --- Wizard,
• Moon Elf (-2 CON, +2 DEX) - Wizard,
• Wood Elf (-2 CON, -2 INT, +2 STR, +2 DEX) --- Ranger,
• Wild Elf (-2 INT, +2 DEX) --- Sorcerer,
• Drow (-2 CON, +2 DEX, +2 INT, +2 CHA) --- Wizard.

The -2 constitution is just -30 hitpoints at level 30. It is really that big of an issue in NWN2, since the class HD are automatically maximised. The favored class of elves tend to be arcane casters, which are popular characters on this server and the racial ability modifiers do support these caster characters. You would not pick a dwarf over a sun elf if you want to make the best wizard you can.

As for the Wild Elf rogue, the -2 Intelligence does not exactly hurt as much as you suggest. Rogues get 8 + intelligence modifier of skill points per level. Thus a Wild Elf rogue with -2 intelligence modifier still gets 6 skill points per level. He can maximise Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device, Tumble to 30, Use Magic Device, and have 3 points in Open Lock. That is all a rogue needs on this server. And you can afford to bump it up to 14 with ease.

A Wood Elf Ranger can do something similar as they only require Hide, Move Silently, and Heal as their class skills, and the class itself grants 6 + intelligence modifier of skill points per level.

And let us not forget the Elven Weapon proficiency which expands the choice of weapons regardless of base class. Nor the elven PRCs such as Arcane Archer with perks that work for both melee and ranged, the Bladesinger that combines arcane might with melee prowess, etc...

The elves are in no way underdogs, and for most of the elvens builds, Keen Senses do not even factor as point of consideration.

chad878262 wrote:Now, added to this, there are plenty of R10 builds that could make for decent WIS. Could go for an Archer Ranger/Rogue/Assassin for example with Zen Archery.

And the dexterity build would be a far better sneaker. Edit: (And actually have Epic Precision, or would go for Ranger 6/Assassin 9/Rogue 15?)

Sun Wukong wrote:And the dexterity build would be a far better sneaker. Edit: (And actually have Epic Precision, or would go for Ranger 6/Assassin 9/Rogue 15?)

Not sure what better sneaker had to do with anything as the point is this bring potential for a new breed of spotters. You no longer need to be a dedicated sneak to be viable at it. As to builds you could go H8/R13/A9. Could also do a wilderness stalker type build. End of the day, spot mechanics are heavily in favor of the spotter so giving more builds keen senses isn't something I'm keen on.

the mechanics are severely in favor of the spotter, if you cant spot someone you are not trying or are just incapable, neither of which really means it needs to be made easier

Spot mechanics may be in favor of the spotter, but I sincerely doubt you're going to see an influx of Keen Senses if you allow it for Rogues. It'd just be a nice treat for those that want it. And again, one huge utility to come of this change would be quality of life boosts for dungeon running - for those that want it.

Also, it's not as if elves would suddenly become BAD because Keen Senses was available.

You would not pick a dwarf over a sun elf if you want to make the best wizard you can.

I actually do prefer dwarf wizards... because of the huge defensive capabilities of dwarves. They're one of the most underrated races: +2 to saves vs. spells, +2 saves vs. poison, +2 CON (+1 fort, 30 HP)... In P&P they're even better, getting extra carry capacity, stability (defense vs. knockdown / bull rush), darkvision 60 ft...

Dwarves are stellar. They may not have +2 INT, but that's, what, one or two extra spells per day and 1 higher DC for their spells? Dwarves have the best defenses of any race, hands down, and it makes them valuable in any role.

Quite frankly, between shield dwarf and gold dwarf, the only reasonsnot to play a dwarf (especially in solo play) are A) you need a certain race for a certain class, B) you really want a bonus feat, C) you're willing to sacrifice a ton of defensive capabilities for a small increase in offensive ones, and D) you just like roleplaying a different race. The one exception may be, like, Aasimar and Epic Divine Might, or Drow/Svirfneblin for spell resistance and such, but those are +ECL races..