Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Sun Wukong wrote:It makes more sense to create an alt login, if you wish to avoid the negative out comes.

Dude, the behavior you described is a lifetime ban material.

It is metagaming + desire to "win" meaning make the situation go the way player wants by any means necessary.

The proper way is to make a disguise and risk a permastrike.

Snarfy wrote:Actually, it doesn't make more sense to create an alt to blatantly metagame and violate the server rules with(as opposed to inventing a new identity with whatever RCR mechanic you're proposing), because any player who metagames in this fashion is going to be instantly called out by any number of players within said guilds(any with a modicum of decency and a sense of fair play at least, which I'll wager is everyone in almost any long-standing quality guild), and then both Joes, and the metagaming player, will be banned. How's that for negative outcomes and impossible to beat disguises? ...

There is no rule that forbids people from playing multiple characters. There is no rule that forbids in character interactions with the enemies of an another character. There is no rule that forbids a player from just sitting at the FAI campfire. There is no rule that forbids the use of in character information acquired by listening and talking to blabbermouth guild leaders, in character.

Hence, in the previous Harper example: you can create a character that is running from debtors. It is a valid and rather reasonable reason for starting the adventuring life. Then you just role-play the character, have him dart up on the first chance to earn some gold, you have him roll that dice for a little gamble at the FAI campfire. 'How about a game of dice everyone?' You are not hiding the fact that gold interests this particular character, you are not hiding the fact that he has flaws that others could abuse, you are just role-playing a flawed character. No one in their right minds should trust such an individial, but this is where human psychology kicks in. This character with his many flaws becomes a familiar sight, and what is familiar, begets trust. This character will get involved, and eventually he will be asked to join a guild, and often the guild leaders become blabbermouths way before that.

Thus a character has acquired in character knowledge in character, and if an outside party approaches as a result of the character's constant in character actions, should the player behind the screen suddenly stop playing in character? Should the player start metagaming because he knows the affliation of this outside party, out of character?

Can you explain what is unlawful about passing forward the information gained in character by the character that gained it?

As for accusations of the player letting his other guild know there is a character of his with some knowdlege to share, well, do you have any way of proving it? Or are you just pointing fingers out of being a sore loser? Consistent role-play of a character is easy to prove with a few gigabytes of screenshots.

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Sigh, this is why I do not bother with the guilds in game. I mean, the moment I roll an 'elf' and show up at FAI, a horde of them will just materialise and start chanting: 'ONE OF US, ONE OF US! JOIN OUR SECRET MEETINGS AND CLUB!' They would even help clear a dungeon in the name of Bhaal, and... actually they already have...


Sigh, just a long sigh...

Sun Wukong wrote: Can you explain what is unlawful about passing forward the information gained in character by the character that gained it?

The problem here is when you create character A for the sole purpose of passing information of character B.

This smells like OOC motivation to railroad the story into specific route.

Sun Wukong wrote: Consistent role-play of a character is easy to prove with a few gigabytes of screenshots.

If you're attempting to have multiple alts that oppose each other, the best idea would be to have not screenshots, but a video footage.

Also, make sure that your characters always meet and interact with each other in the game world, and not through parallel world RP on forums.

In general, I think that one person will have very hard time maintaining characters that oppose each other and belong to opposing guilds. Mostly due to OOC information seeping through.

The point Sun Wukong is trying to make is NOT that this sort of behavior is acceptable, but that it's very doable AT PRESENT within the current system and, in fact, easy to do and NOT easy to actually catch if the player playing Jack Black and Joe White knows what they're doing. And yes, this is behavior I have actually seen at least once in NWN2, and was for PvP purposes.

Now, I am not saying that I think Sun Wukong's idea is without problems, nor am I saying that the concerns expressed are illegitimate. However, it needs to be recognized that his point is not "people should make second accounts to sneak into their enemy guilds without risking their main character," but rather "this is something people could do AT PRESENT and it's actually hard to prove they weren't just RPing their character." There's nothing stopping a player, rule-wise, from having characters in opposing guilds.

(Just as a tagent here: during Tales of Amn's brief existence, I played one character that was super pro-Amn and another character that was a gnoll cleric/warlock bent on the destruction of civilization and of mankind. They would have been diametrically opposed in their goals, and realistically could have come into conflict. Should I have simply not played one of them?)

NegInfinity wrote:

Sun Wukong wrote: Can you explain what is unlawful about passing forward the information gained in character by the character that gained it?

The problem here is when you create character A for the sole purpose of passing information of character B.

This smells like OOC motivation to railroad the story into specific route.

It's more than that...

– No Metagaming!
"Metagaming" is the use of knowledge not lawfully gained by a character in game.
-> Such as but not limited to the following examples:
1. Using the name over someones head as a name tag, until you meet that person in character, you do not know their name.
2. Sending a tell to a friend who was not with you at the time of your death, to come to your location and raise you from the dead.
3. Using information that you learned on character 1, and playing character 2 and using said information not lawfully gained on character 2.

Regarding the OP, and realistically speaking, there are generally only two reasons a player will RCR, 1. To repair a mistake made/optimize a build, and 2. A concept/character becomes stale and the player wants to try something entirely different.

Personally speaking, I would never use an RCR tool limited to name and alignment. I've also never RCR'd a character(be it at 50% or 100% xp refund status) and not changed the build.

How many players here, besides the OP, have ever wanted to RCR for the sole purpose of changing their characters name, alignment, and/or deity while keeping the exact same mechanical build? Furthermore, how many players, besides the OP, would actually use something like this? Show of hands...

My guess is that the amount of players who would actually use this is significantly less than 1 percentile. In which case, this suggestion is roughly the equivalent of suggesting that the server implement Birthday cake head models for characters.

Using information that you learned on character 1, and playing character 2 and using said information not lawfully gained on character 2.

There is no rule that forbids in character interactions with the enemies of an another character. There is no rule that forbids a player from just sitting at the FAI campfire. There is no rule that forbids the use of in character information acquired by listening and talking to blabbermouth guild leaders, in character.

...

Can you explain what is unlawful about passing forward the information gained in character by the character that gained it?

That is his point. In this situation, if Joe White were to get the information he wanted in-character through in-character interactions, there's nothing that says the guy did wrong, and there'd need to be proof that the situation was metagaming. Jack Black, the main character, would get off scotch free so long while Joe White took the bullet.

Is it a scummy move? Certainly! But someone with scummy intentions would Rules Lawyer the Hell out of the situation already, or try to at least, rather than risk their high level character. That's the point Sun Wukong was trying to make.

If you are that concerned about name changes, just be more selective in the names you utilize when you first roll your character. I've sat at character creation screens for hours just trying to come up with the name that best defines my character. Later on if I think of another name, I just tend to think about how another name might best fit maybe another character concept.

This seems to be a choice best made during character creation, not a mechanical tool to retcon after the fact.

Now that I'm a little more active on the server and taking in the atmosphere and community I would have to completely argue against the OP's suggestion for one simple reason:

It over complicates an already relatively simple matter.

It might seem like a simple and reasonable suggestion, but I have to now argue that the RCR system in place is great for what it is and doesn't really require changes. Taking an XP hit for what you are currently able to do (completely redesign an entirely new character from banked XP at a cost) is not an unreasonable tool for what it is, and one I'm actually thankful we have period.

I often contemplate RCR for some of my characters, but the truth of it is that it does not deter me from successful RP, even if my builds aren't the strongest compared to some of the powerbuilds that roam the server stomping everything in sight.

Personally, a flawed character offers hidden strengths that can be expressed and seen as a power path to successful RP, and breathes life into story play. You might not be the best at soloing epic dragons or even epic mobs period, but that doesn't mean your character is utterly useless.

A mechanically superior build that stomps mobs does not a powerful RP character make.

"Don't you see my Padawan? You had the power in YOU all along?!?"

Truth of it is though, the RCR system as it stand's is good enough for what you're looking for, the XP hit isn't as bad as it seems. Yeah, grinding can be tedious, just take a break or do something else or just slow down yourself and find enjoyment in the RP experience: That's what I've done since I first argued for 100% RCR but I've since seen the light with no regrets.

And I still have a level 21 sitting in the vault that I am going to RCR, either when the 100% is offered, or just with the hit, doesn't matter. Mess around with the build calculator, talk to people on the forums or figure it out if that's what you seek. These options that are being suggested are getting old, and tedious, when there are plenty of other suggestions to make that would enrich the community instead of trying to fix what isn't broke.

Snarfy wrote: It's more than that...

– No Metagaming!
"Metagaming" is the use of knowledge not lawfully gained by a character in game.
-> Such as but not limited to the following examples:
1. Using the name over someones head as a name tag, until you meet that person in character, you do not know their name.
2. Sending a tell to a friend who was not with you at the time of your death, to come to your location and raise you from the dead.
3. Using information that you learned on character 1, and playing character 2 and using said information not lawfully gained on character 2.

Good find.

Khazrak wrote:That is his point...

You are fighting against windmills here. Once those two make their minds, they won't change their minds, not even if their error is pointed out repeatedly.