Metagaming: Rules should exist

[Tahlisar]

Just a note on spotting and listening.

Seeing through a disguise requires WISDOM.

If you want to spot body language, and listen for speech patterns, it's all for nothing if you don't have the "Savvy" to be able to understand that "hesitation" and "wires over the ears" means the dwarf your talking to might not be everything he seems.

[Laurk]

Search is an Int based skill because it requires mechanical knowledge and understanding how traps and hidden compartments are designed and thus likely to be put together. As opposed the Wisdom based Spot and Listen which are a more general awareness, Search requires the ability to make educated guesses as to where something would be hidden or how a trap would be set up.

Well said Tahlisar

[CaptainVanguard]

Debatable Laurk, from this refference:

Intelligence (INT): Intelligence is similar to IQ, but also includes mnemonic ability, reasoning and learning ability outside those measured by the written word

Vs:

Wisdom (WIS): Wisdom is a composite term for the characters enlightenment, judgement, wile, willpower and intuitiveness.

In effect, the latter is actually better as a stat to reprisent intuative logic and effectivly reprisents the ability to see with the minds eye rather than looking at a "how would I do it if I was the enemy" POV.

In essense, both could be considered a similar stat:

"An absent minded professor" is someone with low WIS, sure, they might have the INT to plan it out, but someone with a high WIS score will simply "know" something is out of place, they dont have to explain it based on the gentlemens guide to trap-making, they have made traps most likley and have a good idea of where to put them.

Its why Rangers use Wis not Int to determine their spellcaster score, because Rangers are able to naturally set up a plan on the go without need to think of how the gentlemans book would guide it, they would simply "do it".

In effect: INT=The Thinkers Mind set while WIS=The Do'ers Mind.
While someone with knowladge of how to set up a good defence might have a certain intelectual quality, it doesnt have to be the only way to figure it out.
Someone with a high Wisdom score is probably going to have a downright good idea that the "trigger" on the floor means something, the strange thread dangling from the wall is evidently some kind of mechanism for something else. While they might not know exactly what like an INT user, they will have a good idea of what "not" to touch.

[Chasted]

While the warrior in the group goes "Silly Cleric/Wizard, this floor panel is not a trigger. It's a welcoming mat. SEE! *Steps on trigger*

[CaptainVanguard]

Lmao, exactly.

[HaberdasherofDoom]

Remember to.. there are no hard and fast rules how these scores manifest themselves.

I think RPing dum.. aka low intelligence is easy...RPing a low wisdom is hard. The thing I use.. is are you RPing some sort of deficiet that can be related to that score...

I have a low wisdom pc.. and what I will do in the middle of an occ jump in logic.. I will make a wisdom test.. if it passes.. Im golden, if it doesn't well he might say or do something that I ooc would not do in that case...

it leads ocassionally to some humours ends... long diatribe... that ends with the words.. those drow and their overwhelming badness (he rolled a 3). I don't think we as DMs look for.. hey RP your stat this way, but RPing some sort of disadvanatge related to that stat that manifests.. is a good decision.

[Laurk]

Well we know that Search is an Int based skill because thats what it says. So from there its a matter of rationlizing why. Since it "is" Int based, we have to assume that it relys on a working knowledge of how traps and secret compartments work and having a high capacity for storing the many differant devices and mechanical schematics in one's head. Its more logic based and less intuition based. You cant "feel" your way through disarming a trap... though you can certainly "feel" the effects when you screw up and get a cloud of acid in the face because you're the type of person who "listens to her heart" instead of being the type who studied traps beforehand and knows what he's doing.

I RP low wis as having little willpower. Often being prone to giving in to urges or to cowardice. I have a weaponmaster/rogue named Manshin, and once we encountered a Dragon on this server. I was the ONLY character out of about 10 who was visably shaking and hiding in a bush with chattering teeth. Everyone else was like "Pike off Dragon or ill smack you!" or "Come bretherin, I am a super-cool anti-hero and thus we have a mutual understanding due to our ferocious natures... we are practically equals."

Though in fairness... probably everyone there could have smacked him around.... Gods I miss low level servers where dragons are actually dangerous.

[Molag__Bal]

Though in fairness... probably everyone there could have smacked him around.... Gods I miss low level servers where dragons are actually dangerous.

Head up Speartop and say hello to the white dragon. Bring friends. Even with friends, you'll fear her .

[07paul87]

I know, right?! Seril has (had? Where are you, DM Exodus?) a dragon, and the second character he attacked nearly destroyed it.

[CaptainVanguard]

Well we know that Search is an Int based skill because thats what it says. So from there its a matter of rationlizing why. Since it "is" Int based, we have to assume that it relys on a working knowledge of how traps and secret compartments work and having a high capacity for storing the many differant devices and mechanical schematics in one's head. Its more logic based and less intuition based. You cant "feel" your way through disarming a trap... though you can certainly "feel" the effects when you screw up and get a cloud of acid in the face because you're the type of person who "listens to her heart" instead of being the type who studied traps beforehand and knows what he's doing.

I RP low wis as having little willpower. Often being prone to giving in to urges or to cowardice. I have a weaponmaster/rogue named Manshin, and once we encountered a Dragon on this server. I was the ONLY character out of about 10 who was visably shaking and hiding in a bush with chattering teeth. Everyone else was like "Pike off Dragon or ill smack you!" or "Come bretherin, I am a super-cool anti-hero and thus we have a mutual understanding due to our ferocious natures... we are practically equals."

In dictionary terms, im not entirley sure how one relates Wisdom to Willpower, if anything it would be the other way round. also: Wisdom is considered an intuative skill, therefore, you will literally be able to sense something is out of place based on the prime instinct of your characters nature. Sure your not an animal, but you "can" feel that there is something omnious about the area around you. Its an instant reaction to a danger, take a real scenerio void of stats and you'll find you employ your intuition alot more than you do your intelectual logic.

Someone with a high sense of intelect is naturally going to have the common knowladge to think themselves a master of darwins law therefor proof doesnt need to justify itself, it is the ignorant master of logic who fails to employ it other than by being a know it all, but ultimatley, that means they have an almost flawless sense of willpower.

In some ways I do see your point, someone absent of a great deal of common sense probably wouldnt have the logic to employ reason sensibly, but the same can be said for someone with a low charisma score due to the fact it also encourages lonesomness or shyness, or a low INT score because you simply dont know any better.
The sheet does have a dictating stat for everything, but secondary stats also make a degree of sense.
Someone with a high IQ and a low sense of personal judgement isnt going to be stupid enough to yield to temptation, not out of an absense of common sense, but the arrogance that they believe themselves all the more logical.
Charisma is dicated by personal appearence, magnetism and natural leadership, someone with a low charisma score can also be considered a loner 'or' a shy individual who lacks the natural ego to be brave and couragious.

Its a wide spectrum which goes back to the whole character sheet debate, you can on one hand narrow it down to one stat but then it leaves the char utterly defenceless against it if they dont have said stat.
However, in truth I can also see some logic in having a char that isnt a master of all traits. However, almost none of my chars have a - stat because RPing a weakness takes a certain degree of flaw, though I do have one who actually works reasonably well with hers.

See... this is in some ways contradicting your point about stats before. Your now saying contrast to what you said on my other topic, that basically because your character has a low wisdom score she has a low sense of personal willpower, which is ironic because you also claimed that a char with a low intelect score was capable of personal guile.
Im not trying to nitpick, but I will point out that if you have a debate, you also have to back up your own evidence without contradicting it.


Once again, lets conclude what would happen with WIS vs INT.
Lets take a dark omnious room and compair how each person would react to it.
Our INT thinker is instantly going to start thinking of mechanisms and unnatural traps while our WIS character is going to have the natural common sense to "know" something is wrong. Someone with a high sense of Wisdom will also have a high sense of intuative skills, this can make them come across as very paranoid or justly nervous about things around them.

The point is, intuition is the base-instinct of any survivor, your going to need it to survive and without common sense, you've no hope in hell of doing so even if you've the braincells to work out Einstiens theory of reletivity.

[Laurk]

I think I see the disconnect. Im not talking in "dictionary" terms. Im talking in D&D terms. The Player's Handbook has its own glossery, and you'll find that definitions within don't often jive with Websters.

Being smart has nothing to do with how much willpower you have. I had a college proffessor who was one of the most intelligent persons id ever met.. but who ended up getting fired for trying to get a girl in our class to have sex with him in exchange for higher grades. In the end, no matter how fast we can solve mathmatical equasions... we are just a bunch of horney primates. Resisting our animal natures requires will power... not book learning and logic. Even if you can explain with perfect logic why you shouldn't smoke.. it doesn't mean you won't cave like a house of cards when one of your buds lights one up in front of you while you are trying to quit.

Its the intuition that players must provide. The reason Wisdom should equate more toward physical manifestations.. .such as low willpower (as it says in the players handbook) and less into your intuition and RP choices is because this is a concrete playable characteristic that is figured into your saving throw according to your Wisdom score and character class.

If you force cunning and intuition to be RPed according to scores, then what you wind up with is a debaitable script that each player must follow lest they be deemed bad roleplayers. There are many character traits that you can deduce from your scores... however forcing players to knowingly do stupid things that will result in their death because of the way you feel ability scores should be played is a bit too one dimensional to me. And it also means that wolves are a bunch of bad roleplayers.

And of course... to continue beating the horse we've already killed and beaten.... experiance trumps wisdom when it comes to decision making. Doesn't matter if you have a slightly below average Wisdom (8) if you've got life experiance to draw from. Though I could see it if you had abysmal wisdom, like 3-5. Ive had PCs like that... and yes, I forced them to do stupid things that resulted in their deaths.

[Vallyn]

regardless of how good your disguise is somehow, someway, it ends up being metagamed.

I play a Drow. I'm meta-gamed on the surface by roughly half of the players I come across.

If I wear a hood and mask and roleplay that I hide my eyes under the shadows of my hood, I get people running up, Counter-Bluffing to spot my eyes, and the PvP ensues. (Shouldn't it be a spot?)

If I wear a full helm that totally covers my eyes and face along with my cloth armor it not only looks completely goofy, but people instantly assume Drow right off the bat. I actually had a Dwarf run up to me while wearing a full helm and say out of the blue "Take off your helm, Drow." He tried to tell me as far as his character is concerned anyone in a full helm is Drow until proven otherwise; as if Drow wandering around on the Sword Coast surface world is so commonplace as to warrant this behavior.

The worst example I saw of meta-gaming was the other day; this guy walks up to me while I'm speaking elven with an elf and says "You're too short to be an Elf, Drow. *hostile flag, insta-kill, disintegrate body, scatter ashes*

Tell me this, how many elves walk around all day long in hoods and masks and no one ever bothers to roll a spot check on their eyes? No one even tries to accuse an Elf in a mask of being a Drow. Why not? How many other character types, of all types, wear full helms and don't get "You must be a black-guard of Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul etc?" Only someone with an Elven/Drowish looking name gets the full-helm bluff to discover Drow nonsense.

And lastly, on the short Elf stuff, aren't there adolescent Elves? Can't Elves be short? Or do we just have to assume that every single Elf running around on the Sword Coast is full-grown?

Seriously, I should not be forced to roll a stinking Bluff check every time I turn around because I'm shorter than the average Elf and I see no reason I need to roll a Bluff check to hide my eyes under my mask and cowl. I'm not telling lies with my mask, I'm not cracking jokes with it, I'm using the cowl and the mask to hide my face; that's not a bluff, it's a hide check. Telling people I'm shorter than average is not a bluff, it's true; I'm even short for a Drow. Telling people I'm young for an Elf is true. No checks are necessary for the facts that I'm short for my race and that I'm young for my race.

[Thorsson]

Well, my Night Hunter suspects anyone, not demonstrably impossible, who covers their face, of being a Drow. Indeed one day Shevril (how he is missed) and I almost killed a Wild Elf because he raised our suspicions.

OTOH some of my characters could care less, and others would need it to be obvious before they cottoned on. Still, my point is that Drow should be rare on the surface, but on BG they are not. It seems realistic that people are a lot more suspicious than they would be in a more canon setting. It's the problem of making Drow a playable race.

[mar3usmc]

That is because we are masters of disguises mwahaha. We are everywhere and all around you . Actually I havn't left the UD in a looooong while, and don't plan to either.

[Thorsson]

I rarely meet any drow on the surface. I've seen like only three.

Well my level 17 Night Hunter has seen ten (on the surface) at least. And I haven't even been to Durlag's Tower.

Still, even three (in how long game time wise?) is probably far higher than it ought to be.