Imagine you are designing a game

[aaron22]

Bards (Curse Song)

Black Guard (Despair Aura)

Clerics or War Priest (Battle Tibe)

dont you do it...

oh you did it...

you left out the best of them all...

Hidden: show

Orc War Drummer!!

[Rain]

Bards (Curse Song)

Black Guard (Despair Aura)

Clerics or War Priest (Battle Tibe)

dont you do it...

oh you did it...

you left out the best of them all...

Hidden: show

Orc War Drummer!!

Hm? Never heard of em.

[Hoihe]

not buffing because you might get dispelled is not good. you are essentially dispelling yourself. like a max dispell right off the bat. dont do that.

You get dispelled and die. If you can't be dispelled, you won't suddenly die to losing everything.

[chad878262]

INT/DEX based characters are still quite strong. Valefort plays one on his main and solo's content when he wants to prove a point... SB12/D7/WM7/SD4 is quite strong with INT to AC and double INT to Damage, HiPS, strong crits and Epic Precision for INT to damage even against crit immunes. While I do agree that SB19 Wounding Critical is too specialized to be 'worth it' since we only have ~5 or 6 high epic bosses and I think only 2 of them can be effected. However, that is not the only thing Swashbuckler gets past level 5. SB16/D7/WM7 is another option to get evasion without SD and the Weakening Critical is just gravy. If you want to use two kukri's instead of a Rapier can go SB18/IB5/WM7, SB19/IB4/WM7 or SB20/IB5/WM5, which when weakening/wounding critical works is absolutely DEVASTATING.

Bladesinger, I am confused as to comments that it is somehow bad. To be honest I take a great deal of pride in even being a part of it's implementation (and a small one at that, vive le Valefort!) It is a solid, high end Tier two build if optimized and a mid-range Tier 2 to low Tier 3 if at least built well. Obviously any class/build can be junk if you refuse to take any paths to give it the mechanical strengths it has synergies with. My Bladesinger is W5/SB5/EK10/BS10, gets 27 BAB and 24 CL (though it is currently level 24). AC at level 24, with +3 deflection and dodge items, Breastplate of Hidden Imaskar and Namarra Rapier can solo the CR 23 Reaching Woods easily. He does use wards, but if they are dropped he can pop up defensive casting and apply mirrors/displacement or, if necessary invisibility. He reaches 46 AC buffed and I keep half my spells for offensive purposes, yet he still has at least 2 of each buff in case of dispel. 50% on hit sleep is really powerful as it doesn't have the limitation of the first level spell. Gnolls fall asleep at least once or twice in every battle and when I throw (extended) bladeweave in the mix I can take on mobs of Gnolls without losing my mirrors by alternating enemies. Any time one falls asleep or gets dazed I switch targets, usually if I have 4 targets only one or two is able to attack me any given round. Is this a 'power build'? No, but it is a decent Tier 2 melee based gish with some neat 'nova' abilities through Song of Celerity. When buffed he is very strong, but easy to dispel. Because of this he will eventually need +4 stuff, but I didn't mule to him and he's only level 24, so I haven't purchased any epic gear yet. Even without it, I've had no issues in any area's in a party and certain CR appropriate areas offer no challenge. On top of this, due to SB5 he does really good damage at about ~30-35 per hit. This could be higher with a different weapon, but I like on hit effects and sleep 50% is juicy. He also has a rapier he bought from Mudd's for a couple thousand which has on hit stun 10%, 2 rounds, but I like 50% sleep better.

A simple W10/EK10/BS10 gets CL29 and can be very strong as a rapier or longsword build. Get 26 or 28 INT (30/32 w/ Fox Cunning) and leave DEX and STR at 14. Use Mithral Chainmail and your weapon of choice. Your damage will be a bit lower, but with cloud spells and decent DC's lower damage is acceptable.

Finally, I once built for a buddy a Bladesinger that only gets level 7 spells. W8/SB5/D7/BS10. It has more undispellable AC and better damage than my SB Bladesinger thanks to Duelist, but loses level 8 and 9 spells as well as only getting +4 from GMW.

The great thing is there are many ways to build a Bladesinger that work. Some are more powerful than others, none are going to compete with Favored Souls, but they work and can be successful on the server. However, they can NOT be played the same. The Duelist build really can't use spells to buff at all, but for the -1 Natural AC (+4 item instead of Shadow Shield) and -2 (not using IMA) he gets +2 INT (D7) and +1 Deflection (also D7). He could still use IMA and Shadow Shield, but they are relatively easy to dispel and slots are limited. The CL29 can't expect to match the damage of SB types hit for hit, but with cloud spells and better DC's and durations, the total damage per round is roughly equal or at least not far off (better in fact, if faced with multiple enemies).

If anyone thinks Bladesinger is weak they haven't considered how to play to the strengths. They are a lot of fun and the best custom PRC we have implemented since I've joined QC (IMO). No concerns about being Overpowered (like Hierophant) or Underpowered. They have fun, interesting and unique mechanics and lore and offer lots of variation in building them.

Sorry for the rant, but INT/DEX based melee or gishes are simply not the right group to cast as being underpowered (which honestly may have been said in the other thread, getting the two mixed up).

As to DC Casters, they don't have some limitation that says they can ONLY cast DC spells. They can still polymorph/shapechange, summon, use cloud spells, dominate, etc. through PvE and their DC spells can still one shot bosses. If the boss is immune to death magic/necromancy spells they can still cast Mass Blindness and blast them with Empowered Disintegrate, IGMS, etc. DC Casters are very strong and can be built with MANY variations.

Did I miss any 'weak' archetypes?

[aaron22]

You get dispelled and die. If you can't be dispelled, you won't suddenly die to losing everything.

that is why you have emergency back up stuffs. just like every other build

[Hoihe]

You get dispelled and die. If you can't be dispelled, you won't suddenly die to losing everything.

that is why you have emergency back up stuffs. just like every other build

Emergency back up buffs ->

Might as well play a fighter/UMDer, since no spells left to actually do wizard things.

Wear fighter gear ->

Might as well not buff except for bosses, since you need spell slots.

[Rain]

Wait now i'm confused to what we are even debating in here.

On one side you spoke of wanting a wide range debuffer to help your party by using debuffs on a large range of mobs that weren't a one time expendable or short burst that ALSO worked on bosses.

We gave your a few examples to solve that.

Now your looking at how non power builds compare to power builds and why they are better?

I mean just like how life isent fair neither are games there will always be some form of class spec or class combinations that is better then another in video games with class features and customization of any similarity to nwn2 or even a general RPG. Its just called the "meta".

If the thing is you just want to solo bosses or your just want a "Specific class" to be better at soloing bosses why not just tell us your suggestion on how to make that class or combination of classes better within reason to possibility suit your needs or even the needs of others who want a similar class set up like you do.

Ranting about the mechanics you don't like or want to be changed in a form of symbolism i don't believe helps us as a community really understand the standing issue nor how to solve the issue of why a "Sniper" doesn't have a scope equipped.

[aaron22]

i just cant understand making a fighter but with low BAB progress and d4 HPs. all you need is one spell(pot) to get you out of the bad emergency. you do not need to keep back your whole buff string.. it makes no sense. not to me at least.

its not the build that is bad.. you gotta play better.

stop playing a wizard like its a fighter.. it will work as well as playing a fighter like a wizard.

[Rain]

stop playing a wizard like its a fighter.. it will work as well as playing a fighter like a wizard.

^

[Hoihe]

i just cant understand making a fighter but with low BAB progress and d4 HPs. all you need is one spell(pot) to get you out of the bad emergency. you do not need to keep back your whole buff string.. it makes no sense. not to me at least.

its not the build that is bad.. you gotta play better.

stop playing a wizard like its a fighter.. it will work as well as playing a fighter like a wizard.

As the parable described, playing a wizard like a wizard is less than sub-optimal. The game doesn't provide progression unless you use summons, domination or gather enemies with at least 8 int/wis in a mob around you to blast at your feet and repeat.

Your speciality as a wizard without resorting to afking (summons/domination) or weird tactics that NPCs with at least 8 int/wis shouldn't fall for is thus relegated to deleting single targets and dealing with the occasional mass spawn, or counterspelling a caster boss.

Counterspelling caster bosses /sort/ of works. This works well in a party and I have no complaints.

Mass spawns sometimes happen and they're great then. Problem is inflated HP reducing effectiveness of low damage but great splash ability spells. This is most prevalent in DM events where 1 amnian supersoldier exists with 1000 HP to represent 10 common grunts with 100 HP. A 101 damage spell that hits 10 targets should instantly delete said supersoldier, but due to mechanics, you barely scratch it. (meanwhile the WM/FB killed it already). Especially fun if there's 10 amnian supersoldiers to represent a hundred. Some spells (Epic Call Lightning Storm, Meteor Swarm) are specially made to destroy almost infinite amount of enemies so long they fit into the AoE. The WM/FB will still clear them faster. (Now, Great Cleave may be able to do such even in PnP-true mechanics, I'll concede this.)

Single target deletion: The inspiring post had comments by QA implying inhibiting single target deletion is considered "balancing."

[chad878262]

As the parable described, playing a wizard like a wizard is less than sub-optimal. The game doesn't provide progression unless you use summons, domination or gather enemies with at least 8 int/wis in a mob around you to blast at your feet and repeat.

It is a video game and, as such has limitations. If you are sitting around with your buddies playing D&D you might have 2-3 encounters with a large number of enemies. "Gathering" them can be a way to pseudo-represent that. You can also Shapechange to get through mobs without a large amount of spell use. If you are going to solo, you're going to have to accept some method of spell management/economy. In a party...you're a freaking WIZARD. Let the lesser mortals handle your light work. You're there to toss spells when @#$% gets real.

roblem is inflated HP reducing effectiveness of low damage but great splash ability spells. This is most prevalent in DM events where 1 amnian supersoldier exists with 1000 HP to represent 10 common grunts with 100 HP. A 101 damage spell that hits 10 targets should instantly delete said supersoldier, but due to mechanics, you barely scratch it. (meanwhile the WM/FB killed it already). Especially fun if there's 10 amnian supersoldiers to represent a hundred. Some spells (Epic Call Lightning Storm, Meteor Swarm) are specially made to destroy almost infinite amount of enemies so long they fit into the AoE. The WM/FB will still clear them faster. (Now, Great Cleave may be able to do such even in PnP-true mechanics, I'll concede this.)

Single target deletion: The inspiring post had comments by QA implying inhibiting single target deletion is considered "balancing."

So, playing a good guy who doesn't use enchantment or conjuration or evil spells, my first thought is Weird. If they have protection from Good or Mindblank, Mass Blindness/Deafness. If high Fortitude Saves, Solipsism (what can I say, Illusion is my favorite school, don't judge me.) Immune to all of this? Bigby 9, IGMS spam (woot... ) or Grease, Disintegrate (empowered/maximized, a lot). There are other things to do in this situation.

Wizards are the ultimate planners. Ask questions in events, know what you are facing, ask the DM "is this 1 bad mo-fo soldier or does it represent 10?" "Can I RP casting this spell and doing the damage to 10 different soldiers as it is AoE?" I have never had a DM refuse to accept RP based attacks/spells/actions and handle via rolls without resorting to game mechanics. At the end of the day the rule of cool wins.

[Sun Wukong]

Yeah, it helps to ask what you are seeing. For example in some event long past I saw a small young sized black dragon, attacked it, and it did some 400 acid damage... Apparently it was some super ancient black dragon made small to fit the dungeon.

Bard 20/Pale Master 10 is another potential debuffer. Undead are immune to mind-affecting, and hence you got a wall of dead flesh from the Animate Dead and Create Greater Undead. Legionairre's March allows you to share the highest BAB among the party, and Epic Inspiration allows you to combine your Inspire Courage with Inspire Jarring. Thus, with Inspire Jarring, Mind Fog, and High Charisma you can cast rather high DC Mass Hold Person or Mass Charm Monster (Which might still be bugged).

Anyhow...

This whole thing would be better with a list of bosses that have immunities they should not have. In such a case, perhaps some of those immunities could be changed into spell effects. Hence, there would be a real reason to cast dispell on some mobs and bosses.

[aaron22]

playing a wizard like a wizard is less than sub-optimal.

It is a video game

[metaquad4]

Playing a wizard like a wizard is less than sub-optimal. The game doesn't provide progression unless you use summons, domination or gather enemies with at least 8 int/wis in a mob around you to blast at your feet and repeat.

So. . .you've once again twisted definitions to fit your own narrative. I'm sorry to say (not really), but dominating, summoning, and gathering enemies are all "playing a wizard".

Yeah, playing a 30 fighter is suboptimal if you aren't using any feats you picked up. Playing a druid with 8 WIS is also suboptimal. So is playing a bard without using songs or spells.

This is a really silly argument. You are establishing "playing a wizard" as using none of the viable wizard tactics, then complaining that wizards aren't viable. Of course, by those twisted standards they aren't. You've just gutted away wizard tactics, then said "oh, no, they don't have anything viable!". Congratulations! You made my (and every other wizard player's) head explode!

You aren't going to get anywhere, because your argument doesn't make any sense and doesn't apply to nwn2 at all.

I'm not really sure how to respond to this, other than "No, you are objectively wrong. Get a bloody grip.".

[Tekill]

I'm always wanting to roll wizards for some reason even though I am not very experienced with them. I love the classic wizard idea. Flesh to Stone is my all time favorite spell. Everytime it works, I want to cheer. I remember playing a wizard back when Cone of Cold was the big deal.
I've never played a debuffer/DC/or Blaster wizard, at least not without an extra gimick, like HIPS, or becomming Gishy. Because, yeah, it's a video game and it spawns mob after mob after mob.
I feel a decent wizard should have a spell for almost any occasion. But my patience runs out when I have constantly try to figure out the unique combination of spells thats going to take out a particular boss that often seem to have very unusual defences. I know that is what being a wizard is all about but I find it more frustrating on this server sometimes than I do fun or interesting.
From what I have read on this post there seems to be a will and a way to always do it. But still, that seems to be a lot of trial and error. So I might be willing to try, who knows!
I am not saying make Cone of Cold, great again, but I can understand a players frustration when trying to learn and enjoy a certain class or a certain style of class.
My wizards were gishs or had hips or like my current one, had tough pets and can shapechange. Even with my two pets and shapechanged I am not at all sure how I am going to fare at level 30 amoung some of the other powerhouse builds. I try not to let it bother me, as I am having fun with my wiz right now.
Its not just my wizard. For example, I am not sure I will ever be able to afford to get my rogues hide and move silently high enough. Pay to sneak.
Its frustrating and it feels good to discuss these things that are frustrating. Good conversation come out of it.