The Crusader Paladin Kit Is Not Good Enough

[Okan]

Just because epic gear is sold in vendors does not make them "available". Not everyone has millions to buy such gear.

Regardless of that, as someone who tried playing a very similar build to yours, I personally think something other than raw numbers is wrong with your example @mrm3ntalist. To me at least, it felt like a regular fighter with a splash of AK than the holy warrior that a paladin is supposed to represent. Apart from a late SLA and a minor divine damage buff. I just couldn't identify myself as one through what my class abilities gave to me. Not only it forsook a big part of the divine essence of a holy man, the spells granted by their precious deities, it also did not take advantage of any abilities that tied to Charisma.

I think when discussing kits are good or bad, the lack of identity in relation to the base class also should be a parameter. In this case, I feel like the trade-offs push one out of the class fantasy rather than tweaking it to amplify aspects of it.

A good comparison is Hunter kit for Rangers, a similar loss of spellcasting is present in this case. Albeit many told me that losing that spellcasting not worth considering what I get from the kit when I played the kit, it felt I am still playing Ranger alright, just a different kind.

[mrm3ntalist]

Just because epic gear is sold in vendors does not make them "available". Not everyone has millions to buy such gear.

Any character that starts at level1. By level 30 he will be able to afford the gear in the epic shops. If by available, you mean that end game gear should be given at very early levels, that is not happening by design.

Regardless of that, as someone who tried playing a very similar build to yours, I personally think something other than raw numbers is wrong with your example @mrm3ntalist. To me at least, it felt like a regular fighter with a splash of AK than the holy warrior that a paladin is supposed to represent. Apart from a late SLA and a minor divine damage buff. I just couldn't identify myself as one through what my class abilities gave to me. Not only it forsook a big part of the divine essence of a holy man, the spells granted by their precious deities, it also did not take advantage of any abilities that tied to Charisma.

I dont play the STR version of the crusader, but the CHA one. It is not as powerful as the STR, but it works nicely and works perfectly for what it is intented to do. Get naked and solo the balor.

I think when discussing kits are good or bad, the lack of identity in relation to the base class also should be a parameter. In this case, I feel like the trade-offs push one out of the class fantasy rather than tweaking it to amplify aspects of it.

A good comparison is Hunter kit for Rangers, a similar loss of spellcasting is present in this case. Albeit many told me that losing that spellcasting not worth considering what I get from the kit when I played the kit, it felt I am still playing Ranger alright, just a different kind.

I underlined the last part. That is exactly what the kits were designed to do. It still the same base class ( ranger or paladin ) yet you specialize in something such as being two hander in case of the crusader, while you sacrifice something ( spell casting). It is a specialization, but the "feel" of the class remains the same.

[electric mayhem]

Which other 2hander builds get similar stats? I am certain there will be some but not many.

What full stat epic gear is not available to you? Are you kidding me? Is there something missing?

2 hander builds, hard to pin down as many classes can make them.
One comparison would be a fighter build yeh? (Note, this is by no means an exhaustive comparison, because frankly, I'm not interested in the build pissing contents that regularly occurs on the forums.).

Could it be said that the only 'two handed' specific benefit feats a Crusader gets is a:
+3 dmg (wis max) (fighter can't get). (Fighter Epic weap Spec +6 Dmg, Slashing/Piercing Master +2 AB/Dmg)
+6 ab (epic focus, just like a fighter feat).
+6 shield ac (fighter can get + 6 ICE.)
+5 Holy Sword (when it works) (+1 AB and +1dmg higher than a +4EB weapon equipped by fighter). 2d6 bonus to evil (nice when attacking evil).

Just in that very brief assessment.
Assume Same STR stats. CHA not included for EDM builds as EDM/DS are spot short term buffs. Yes, while they add combat benefits in the short term, trying to compare apples with apples here. Plus, personal feel that duration of EDM and DS should be 2 rnds per CHA bonus. Tale for another ale.

Crusader net difference to 2 handed Fighter build:
+3 Wis Dmg,
-1 AB (+1 HS SLA AB - 2 Mastery F AB)
-7 dmg (+1 from HS vs EB4 diff, - 8 from EWS and Mastery)

I really wanted Crusader to be awesome and feel good to use. Like Steve said, got sick of the buff and play. Wanted something easy to have fun with.
It was almost there, almost, but I seriously felt running with a full Divinate Pal build was much more fun an easier to manage across the epic content, than the Crusader.


As for gear. I didn't say I personally. General comment suggesting that there are many players on the server that may not have ready access to epic loot. So we shouldn't be using max stat numbers to 'measure' a build, when marketing it the greater population of players.

[mrm3ntalist]

(Note, this is by no means an exhaustive comparison, because frankly, I'm not interested in the build pissing contents that regularly occurs on the forums.).

I will start with this. Suggestion and discussion is to discuss mechanics. If pissing contests is what you think happens and you dont like it, feel free to stay away. Coming here and telling so, is asking for it. Okan previously, made a very good post. Even RedLancer, who i disagree with, kept this discussion going without getting into personal things. This is your second post here and you already talk about pissing contests... Seriously, who is at fault here????

Which other 2hander builds get similar stats? I am certain there will be some but not many.

What full stat epic gear is not available to you? Are you kidding me? Is there something missing?

2 hander builds, hard to pin down as many classes can make them.
One comparison would be a fighter build yeh?

Could it be said that the only 'two handed' specific benefit feats a Crusader gets is a:
+3 dmg (wis max) (fighter can't get). (Fighter Epic weap Spec +6 Dmg, Slashing/Piercing Master +2 AB/Dmg)
+6 ab (epic focus, just like a fighter feat).
+6 shield ac (fighter can get + 6 ICE.)
+5 Holy Sword (when it works) (+1 AB and +1dmg higher than a +4EB weapon equipped by fighter). 2d6 bonus to evil (nice when attacking evil).

Just in that very brief assessment.
Assume Same STR stats. CHA not included for EDM builds as EDM/DS are spot short term buffs. Yes, while they add combat benefits in the short term, trying to compare apples with apples here. Plus, personal feel that duration of EDM and DS should be 2 rnds per CHA bonus. Tale for another ale.

Crusader net difference to 2 handed Fighter build:
+3 Wis Dmg,
-1 AB (+1 HS SLA AB - 2 Mastery F AB)
-7 dmg (+1 from HS vs EB4 diff, - 8 from EWS and Mastery)

I really wanted Crusader to be awesome and feel good to use. Like Steve said, got sick of the buff and play. Wanted something easy to have fun with.
It was almost there, almost, but I seriously felt running with a full Divinate Pal build was much more fun an easier to manage across the epic content, than the Crusader.


As for gear. I didn't say I personally. General comment suggesting that there are many players on the server that may not have ready access to epic loot. So we shouldn't be using max stat numbers to 'measure' a build, when marketing it the greater population of players.

It is difficult to follow the rest of the post becasue there is no clear comparison. Is there a 2 hander version of either the vanilla paladin or divinate (cavalier is designed to be sword and board) that can make a better 2 hander paladin than the crusader? I think not. On top of that, it is difficult for any other build to match the numbers of the crusader.

[RedLancer]

think you are reading a different discussion. We speak of a kit which is explicit for two handers and how it(the kit) improves a style (2hadned) for the specific class( paladin).

We're having the same discussion.

Is there a 2 hander version of either the vanilla paladin or divinate (cavalier is designed to be sword and board) that can make a better 2 hander paladin than the crusader? I think not.

We already did this, and all we had to do was take your Crusader build and make it a vanilla Paladin.

I don't think I need to debate using a shield v. Combat Expertise and why that defensive approach to a two-handed combatant is wrong. To summarize, a non-Crusader can account for 4 points of the Crusader's Shield AC through Tumble (dip class) and Silverbeard. In the event that additional AC is needed, the non-Crusader has the option of equipping a shield (which they can enchant to +5) for an additional 7 AC with no attack penalty (unless Monkey Grip is involved), and they can unequip that shield when the situation no longer calls for it. In so doing, they do not take a -6 to hit and maintain better offensive output.

You're moving goalposts by focusing on the fact that the Crusader's stats are "forever" and not buff reliant, but "buff reliant" is not a meaningful consideration; they last long enough to do the content. Needing to dip out to rest when doing an extended dungeon run is not a crippling barrier to enjoyable play.

The Crusader is supposed to be the superior two-handed Paladin, but all it does is finish in a close fourth place out of four. It's stats settle behind the non-Crusaders in addition to having no spell book, lower saving throws, and no multiclass opportunities.

Get naked and solo the balor.

This is Planar Turning. It is not an argument for the class's overall power. You continue to use this as an argument for the class's mechanical strength, and it continues to be dishonest.

[mrm3ntalist]

We already did this, and all we had to do was take your Crusader build and make it a vanilla Paladin.

No, what you did is take the build i made, then say i ll make a paladin/AK,and then i will use a shield wand to match the AC.

Then about the damage, you say alright, the numbers dont add up, lets include a 3min spell in the damage as if it is something permanent. It is not. You get to use it for 3 mins, then it is done.

If for example you go with that build at the Graypeak area, your character will be trashed by the giants after 9mins - when silverbeard expires and you are left with 47AC

I don't think I need to debate using a shield v. Combat Expertise and why that defensive approach to a two-handed combatant is wrong. To summarize, a non-Crusader can account for 4 points of the Crusader's Shield AC through Tumble (dip class) and Silverbeard. In the event that additional AC is needed, the non-Crusader has the option of equipping a shield (which they can enchant to +5) for an additional 7 AC with no attack penalty (unless Monkey Grip is involved), and they can unequip that shield when the situation no longer calls for it. In so doing, they do not take a -6 to hit and maintain better offensive output.

You're moving goalposts by focusing on the fact that the Crusader's stats are "forever" and not buff reliant, but "buff reliant" is not a meaningful consideration; they last long enough to do the content. Needing to dip out to rest when doing an extended dungeon run is not a crippling barrier to enjoyable play.

The Crusader is supposed to be the superior two-handed Paladin, but all it does is finish in a close fourth place out of four. It's stats settle behind the non-Crusaders in addition to having no spell book, lower saving throws, and no multiclass opportunities.

The crusader is supposed to make a viable, non spell casting two hander paladin. Yes it is so specific and it was a player request.

Get naked and solo the balor.

This is Planar Turning. It is not an argument for the class's overall power. You continue to use this as an argument for the class's mechanical strength, and it continues to be dishonest.

... who said anything about mechanical strength. I said the CHA version is actually weaker than the STR. The planar turning is available for every paladin with enough CHA. You should stop seeing ghost when there arent any.

[Okan]

I dont play the STR version of the crusader, but the CHA one. It is not as powerful as the STR, but it works nicely and works perfectly for what it is intented to do. Get naked and solo the balor.

If the only parameter of class balance on a roleplay server is to be able to solo balor naked, by all means, this is a balanced kit. But frankly, it is a bit frustrating when every class/kit discussion boiling down to whether if it can solo the balor naked. Numbers might be important but there are more to these classes than raw numbers.

It still the same base class ( ranger or paladin ) yet you specialize in something such as being two hander in case of the crusader, while you sacrifice something ( spell casting). It is a specialization, but the "feel" of the class remains the same.

For the "feel" of the class to remain the same, the specialization needs to pander the class fantasy to negate the loss of an integral part of the same class fantasy. Frankly, two-handed fighting is a martial fighting style. If it was for a barbarian kit -a class that focuses on reckless attacks that aim for maximum damage- or fighter kit -a class that embodies mastery on martial fighting styles- that would pander to class fantasy.

On top of that whether if we agree upon two-handed style panders to the feel of the class or not, this kit interacts with two-handed weapons is in defensive manners by getting a shield enhancement AC. Neither having permanent holy sword nor having epic weapon focus nor extra divine damage tied to ones wisdom has nothing to do with two-handed weapons.

[mrm3ntalist]

I dont play the STR version of the crusader, but the CHA one. It is not as powerful as the STR, but it works nicely and works perfectly for what it is intented to do. Get naked and solo the balor.

If the only parameter of class balance on a roleplay server is to be able to solo balor naked, by all means, this is a balanced kit. But frankly, it is a bit frustrating when every class/kit discussion boiling down to whether if it can solo the balor naked. Numbers might be important but there are more to these classes than raw numbers.

The planar turning is not a characteristic of the crusader, but any paladin with 21CHA and full undead progression.

It still the same base class ( ranger or paladin ) yet you specialize in something such as being two hander in case of the crusader, while you sacrifice something ( spell casting). It is a specialization, but the "feel" of the class remains the same.

For the "feel" of the class to remain the same, the specialization needs to pander the class fantasy to negate the loss of an integral part of the same class fantasy. Frankly, two-handed fighting is a martial fighting style. If it was for a barbarian kit -a class that focuses on reckless attacks that aim for maximum damage- or fighter kit -a class that embodies mastery on martial fighting styles- that would pander to class fantasy.

On top of that whether if we agree upon two-handed style panders to the feel of the class or not, this kit interacts with two-handed weapons is in defensive manners by getting a shield enhancement AC. Neither having permanent holy sword nor having epic weapon focus nor extra divine damage tied to ones wisdom has nothing to do with two-handed weapons.

Arent there two hander paladins? I dont understand what point you are trying to make. The divinate for example is the exactly the same like the vanilla paladin. Some cant even tell the difference. I dont know what you suggest that should be done with the kits in general, because what you describe is not an issue with the crusader kit, but any kit in general.

[metaquad4]

Also, do paladin kits stack with paladin levels to determine epic bonus feats?
1) If no, you have 3 feats too many in the epics.
2) If yes, mine can come out with -1 AB, +1 AC, and +2 damage.

You get the bonus feats

Duration is very important unless you fight goblins. Especially for rangers and paladins with 3-3-3-3 + WIS spells for each level. You simply dont have enough spell slots for the long run.

The difference for example is when you go to fight the Balor, then you have nothing left for the boss in the camp. I wont mention the DM events... "DM can we rest now?". If you rely so much on the spell book, you will end up sitting in the back with the casters, while crusaders, rangers, barbarians will be up front kicking @ss and taking names.

Cavalier is fast, it has the numbers and works nicely. Easier to play than any other kit or even the vanilla paladin - when 2 handed.

If we are talking about events, then literally anything can happen. A DM can say "melee attacks won't work on this target" rendering your melee character moot. Or a DM can throw in beholders to render any casting character useless.

Events are exceedingly variable and don't make for good playgrounds for balance. And your point doesn't hold up in main play, the place where we can consistently measure results. Where resting is can be done aprox every 20 mins (less for below level 30). That is what we balance around.

[mrm3ntalist]

It is not just events. A simple example is going and kill the balor, then most if not all your short term paladin buffs wont be available to you for the General. There will be no silverbeard, no holy weapon. The same for other areas where you go from one boss to another. Most of the time you will end up fighting without the short term buffs

[Steve]

Hey guys! We get it! No one agrees with M3nt! But let’s not stoke the flames! Okay?

Let’s try and identify what SPECIFICALLY could be changed and work on that.

Some proposals:

- have Holy Sword active from Level 1 Crusader and progressing the whole 29.
- have Crusader be a 25 Level Kit
- have Crusader be a 19 Level Kit
- double the WIS based dmg
- add SLAs of Protection from Alignment; Deathward; others?
- increase 2-handed shield AC to +8
- grant Tumble to the Kit
- add Weapon Specialization feat line to the Crusader Kit progression (up to Epic)
- add Iron Will feat to kit
- add Toughness +/- Steadfast Determination to the Kit


If someone could list some of the Canon sources from where Crusader was built from, maybe some additional/alternate feats would make sense?

Anyway, I humbly request QC officially consider the above list. Cheers.

[PiaMango]

I really tried to make crusader work for my paladin but it just didn't seem worth it. Current build is 1paladin/4 crusader/4monk/14fighter/7weapon master here: http://nwn2db.com/build/?297623. Running around with a variation with 6monk to fit in spot and free improved knock down.

Crusader gets more ac 2hnd. Umd evens the ac but the weapon master gives so much more damage. The weapon master build also has the option to go more defensive with a towershield.

One boon of crusader though is weapon focus for free on my build

[Nemni]

- have Crusader be a 26 Level Kit
- have Crusader be a 20 Level Kit

This is the change I would prefer. I don't think that it's a good idea to force / strongly encourage pure level 30 builds in 3e.

[Steve]

I'm amending that list I put up to be kit Levels 19 or 25 (because of needing that 1 Paladin level),

[Theodore01]

Just give the crusader the WM goodies (Increased Multiplier+Ki Critical)