Zen Archery and Crossbow Sniper

[Truthiness]

Intuition isn't about conscious control, it's not lining up shots consciously. It's basically your brain on auto-pilot. Crossbow sniper doesn't aid in stabilizing your weapon, it's based off of your ability to stabilize and precisely shoot, which would be more hand-eye coordination, aka dexterity. If you can think of a reason that someone who doesn't consciously control their shots would get a bonus to damage equal to someone who does, then I'm all ears. Maybe a lesser bonus to the crossbow sniper would work, .5 with weapon focus, 1 with master crossbow sniper, to represent the fact that the person isn't consciously controlling their shots, instead just using intuition to guide them (and if it's not just intuition, then there's no reason for it to change from dex to wis ).

As for builds, it took me 5 minutes to come up with a build that would hit for 70+ on manyshot, with 50+ AB and 50+ AC, with all the nice defenses that cleric buffs give and some epic-level saves. It hits for 80+ with owl's insight, too. Has plenty of spells and decent DCs. Cleric 26/monk 4. Not using any consumables, just a brooch of shielding. If it has consumables like greater heroism potions or IMA wands, it can reach even higher (especially with owl's insight, it could easily be at 60~ AB). With longterm buffs, it has 45+ AC and 40~ AB, which is solid enough to still do decent amounts of damage and survive, while still doing 70+ on manyshot. I imagine if I put in some time to it, I could come up with a much better build, probably using assassin. Hell, cleric 21/assassin 9 would be very powerful, and very hard to kill. (A dex version of it would be decent, a wis version of it would be amazing)

Fighter crossbowers have crappy saves, have to use consumables to buff them, and rely heavily on hips or consumables for defense. They do a bit more damage, yes. 85+, But not 100+ damage that you're talking about, unless they go for ranger 26/fighter 4 (which is around 97~ per manyshot with the epic crossbow, but only vs favored enemies), which would just be superior wisdom based (instead doing 109~ per shot with owl's insight elixirs or buffed by a druid, and fixing their lowest save along with giving them plenty of spells). If you're talking about 100+ with assassin death attack, then yes, but then they lose out on AB and saves even more, and only get that amazing damage on the first shot (or first two with haste). Wisdom based would fix their low will save as well.

Reflex save is the least important save out of the three. As there are very few spells that can instantly screw you over if you fail a reflex save, compared to fort or will.

EDIT: I took the time and theorycrafted a cleric 21/assassin 9, wis based, and it's indeed very powerful. (Let's say of Silvanus for powerbuilding reasons) With the crossbow belt (Rapid Reload and Improved Crit, +3 Dex), and not using a crossbow with mighty, as that would more put it in the cleric's favor in terms of damage.
AC = 10 + 5 (Mithral Breastplate) + 5 (Dex) + 5 (Armor) + 5 (Deflect) + 5 (Natural) + 4 (Dodge) + 3 (Tumble) = 42 AC with longterm buffs (with hips) + 4 (Shield from Brooch of Shielding) + 3 (Recitation) + 1 (Haste) = 50 AC (-10 if you have stonebody up, but that pretty much makes you immune to everything)
AB with longterm buffs = 21 + 10 (Wis) + 4 (EB) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 3 (Spells) = 39 AB (but with hips to deny dodge/dex, so it's more than enough)
AB with shortterm buffs = 30 + 10 (Wis) + 4 (EB) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 8 (Spells) = 53 AB (+4 with Greater Heroism potion, + 4 with Owl's Insight elixir for a total of 61 AB, which is much higher than any dex build with assassin can reach alone)
Damage with longterm buffs = 1d10 + 15 (Wis) + 4 (EB) + 1d4 (epic crossbow) + 1d4 (bolts) = 59~ (71~ with Owl's Insight), which isn't too high, but that's without sneak dice, which puts it up to 94~ (106~ with Owl's Insight)
Damage with shortterm buffs = 1d10 + 15 (Wis) + 4 EB) + 1d4 (epic crossbow) + 1d4 (bolts) + 3 (divine favor) + 1 (prayer) = 67~ (79~ with Owl's Insight), with sneak dice it goes up to 102~ (114~ with Owl's Insight)
Now with Owl's Insight, it reaches almost the same damage as the highest damage crossbow builds out there (ranger 21/assassin 9 or fighter 12/EA 5/assassin 9/AK or WoD 4), while having MUCH greater saves and defenses, due to cleric spells and high wis. It can invest into sneak gear same as the ranger while still maintaining high AC due to spells. It's AB is far higher shortterm than either of those builds can do (Ranger 21/assassin 9 capping out at 53~ AB vs favored enemies with Haste and Greater Heroism up, and the fighter version with 55~ AB).
Overall, because of Owl's Insight existing and being available, it's better than any dex versions of the same build, and there would be more wis crossbow snipers than dex if it was added with full damage. I don't think it makes any sense conceptually, but if it is added, I agree with chambo on making it reduced damage, .5 for the normal crossbow sniper, 1 for master crossbow sniper (with weapon focus).

[Zethrenx99]

IDK where you are getting these numbers from so I would love to see the actual build statistics (race base stats feat progression skill distribution).

Hidden: show

Here is mine: Aasimar
str 8
dex 17
con 8
int 14
wis 19
cha 10

33 ranks concentration, 29 ranks hide, 30 ranks tumble, 25 ranks ms, 1 rank lore, 1 rank open lock. (so less that good hide/ms 0 extra skills for rp, pathetic open lock and no disable device with a low dex means 34 hide 30 ms at level 30) and NO UMD which means they have to use elixers and likely wont have +4 dodge boots.

Weight restrictions: 15 lb armor + 9 lbs heavy crossbow so half of your carrying capacity without a +4 str item or constant bulls str is taken by those two items alone.

252 hp at the end means can almost be one shot by an epic mage with power word kill + IMS.

clerics only get NA spell if they take plant domain so NA would likely be 4.

recitation and divine power use the same spell slot, at 7 slots at level 21 means 3 recitations and 4 divine powers. you end up with around 20 mins of divine power/recitation/battletide which is not ideal for most areas after level 15, maybe a minute longer if you take practiced spellcaster as an epic feat and end at 30 wis instead of 32.

[chad878262]

rather than compare to EDM Cleric it's best to compare apples to apples. For example, today look at what a DEX based Ra21/A9 can do with Xbow Sniper vs. what a WIS based Ranger can do tomorrow should this be implemented. First off the immediate benefit is more spells (DEX for AB/AC/Damage vs. WIS For AB/Damage/more spell slots). As to AC, well 14 DEX and Mithral Chainmail is going to end up giving you 10 AC same as if you had 26 DEX (30 w/ Cats Grace) so you get more spells and assuming equal stat distribution (14 WIS, max DEX vs. 14 DEX, max WIS) you retain your AC, AB and Damage. It is a flat upgrade. Skillpoints are a non-issue since Ranger gets 6/level and Assassin 4/level and there is no difference in feats you'll take.

So this would be a flat power-up, you aren't giving up anything, just gaining which I think is kind of the point some folks have been making in this thread. You talk about providing builds, but yours is only half done. No detail around class distribution, feat allocation, AC/AB/Damage calculations, etc. However, a Crossbow Sniper Cleric is a VERY dangerous thing. With that much WIS they are only ~3 DC worse in one spell school then a dedicated caster cleric so arguing their DCs are somehow rubbish by taking xbow feats is a false statement. Implosion DC will literally be 3 points different so 39 instead of 42 if you want to use 42 as your example of max. Taking elixirs in to account isn't pointless either because while they help caster clerics and xbow snipers equally for spell DCs the added benefit for the xbow sniper is long duration massive buff to AB, damage and spell DC vs. only spell DC for the caster. The whole negative about being a focused caster is the need to understand and manage spell economy. This idea of zen archery crossbow sniper basically is a way to build a focused caster (so long as WIS is the casting stat) that has the ultimate reserve feat. Instead of doing ~30 damage max with whatever your reserve feat is you are doing over 100 with more on a crit while still being able to unload massive DC on bosses.

Not sure why this isn't more obvious, there would need to be a bit more mitigation than what has been discussed...Otherwise it is a clear powerup with nothing mitigating it.

[Truthiness]

IDK where you are getting these numbers from so I would love to see the actual build statistics (race base stats feat progression skill distribution).

Hidden: show

Here is mine: Aasimar
str 8
dex 17
con 8
int 14
wis 19
cha 10

33 ranks concentration, 29 ranks hide, 30 ranks tumble, 25 ranks ms, 1 rank lore, 1 rank open lock. (so less that good hide/ms 0 extra skills for rp, pathetic open lock and no disable device with a low dex means 34 hide 30 ms at level 30) and NO UMD which means they have to use elixers and likely wont have +4 dodge boots.

Weight restrictions: 15 lb armor + 9 lbs heavy crossbow so half of your carrying capacity without a +4 str item or constant bulls str is taken by those two items alone.

252 hp at the end means can almost be one shot by an epic mage with power word kill + IMS.

clerics only get NA spell if they take plant domain so NA would likely be 4.

recitation and divine power use the same spell slot, at 7 slots at level 21 means 3 recitations and 4 divine powers. you end up with around 20 mins of divine power/recitation/battletide which is not ideal for most areas after level 15, maybe a minute longer if you take practiced spellcaster as an epic feat and end at 30 wis instead of 32.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?303838

I chose Silvanus for plant domain so it could give up the amulet slot for even more hide/ms, if you went strength domain, you could fix the divine power thing. You could always abandon concentration entirely (as it's not entirely needed) and go for much higher UMD. It doesn't have the most hp, but it can hips and has cleric buffs, could easily reach over 300 and has healing spells as well. (Bearskin Armor even gives a 15 CL Bear's Endurance 1/day). (It can reach 66/63 hide/ms with the Bearskin armor and Belted Quiver of Supreme Skill equipped, which is enough to sneak past a large amount of PCs and NPCS, -4 if you're using a +4 natural armor amulet. You only need a round or two to get in a sneak attack. And you could always get Spiderskin Scrolls for +4 natural armor anyway, and keep the hide/ms.)

[Zethrenx99]

IDK where you are getting these numbers from so I would love to see the actual build statistics (race base stats feat progression skill distribution).

Hidden: show

Here is mine: Aasimar
str 8
dex 17
con 8
int 14
wis 19
cha 10

33 ranks concentration, 29 ranks hide, 30 ranks tumble, 25 ranks ms, 1 rank lore, 1 rank open lock. (so less that good hide/ms 0 extra skills for rp, pathetic open lock and no disable device with a low dex means 34 hide 30 ms at level 30) and NO UMD which means they have to use elixers and likely wont have +4 dodge boots.

Weight restrictions: 15 lb armor + 9 lbs heavy crossbow so half of your carrying capacity without a +4 str item or constant bulls str is taken by those two items alone.

252 hp at the end means can almost be one shot by an epic mage with power word kill + IMS.

clerics only get NA spell if they take plant domain so NA would likely be 4.

recitation and divine power use the same spell slot, at 7 slots at level 21 means 3 recitations and 4 divine powers. you end up with around 20 mins of divine power/recitation/battletide which is not ideal for most areas after level 15, maybe a minute longer if you take practiced spellcaster as an epic feat and end at 30 wis instead of 32.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?303838

I chose Silvanus for plant domain so it could give up the amulet slot for even more hide/ms, if you went strength domain, you could fix the divine power thing. You could always abandon concentration entirely (as it's not entirely needed) and go for much higher UMD. It doesn't have the most hp, but it can hips and has cleric buffs, could easily reach over 300 and has healing spells as well. (Bearskin Armor even gives a 15 CL Bear's Endurance 1/day). (It can reach 66/63 hide/ms with the Bearskin armor and Belted Quiver of Supreme Skill equipped, which is enough to sneak past a large amount of PCs and NPCS, -4 if you're using a +4 natural armor amulet. You only need a round or two to get in a sneak attack. And you could always get Spiderskin Scrolls for +4 natural armor anyway, and keep the hide/ms.)

6 cha, terribly ugly . Sometimes i wish nwn2 followed the death on 0 attribute rule as then a single feeble mind would insta kill this build. Without concentration you run the risk of being unable to use any of the cleric spells as most of them have very short duration and so it would be extremely unadvised. with 13 umd and -2 cha mod you would need a +4 cha item to even use wands and you will not be able to use spider skin scrolls without plant domain at that low of a umd. So your domains would have to be plant and str which means no evasion which isn't a big deal. 26 wis would require a +4 wis item to get that additional 5th 6th and 7th slots that you get at 30's. Mithral breastplate also adds a -1 to your sneaking but it sounds like you want to drop ac for bearskin armor (which im unfamiliar with the stats on).

In response to whatever that was chad did: I'm not the one argueing that the build is dramatically op and thus I'm not required to try and make the entire build for the opposing argument. What I did was show a preview of what the base states on a build that would accomplish what the posed build layed out and its potential fatal flaws. Additionally, dc for a lvl 30 caster vs level 25 cast is +1 in epic levels alone. +3 from feats and +3 from attribute points to a total of +7 which is nothing to scoff at. Include spell casting protege and you are at a whopping +8 to all dc's with more spells per day. Take into consideration that monsters pass almost all their saves after level 15 as all mobs have very high saves, without +8 you are unlikely to get a destruction or implosion to even pass. So obviously less obvious than you had considered.

so lets look at apples to apples. wis based ranger vs dex based ranger. wis based ranger needs 14 dex still minimum. A dex based ranger requires a min of 10 wis. wis based ranger gets more ranger dc's (if that is even a thing) and at the extreme +2 spell slots. a dex based ranger gets 3 more ac than a wis based ranger. A dex based ranger gets a higher str while a wis based ranger would have higher cha. AB is the same. sneaking for a dex based ranger is +11 better than a wis based ranger. Damage is the same...exactly what is it that wis based rangers are getting now as a free massive overpowered buff for nothing?

Mithral chainmail is +5 base +4 dex unless it is different on this server meaning 9 ac not 10 from 14 dex and +4 dex item. looks like it is a base 6 here.

[Ewe]

These feats already stack. The original post should be re-worded to specify what is actually wanted.

[Zethrenx99]

These feats already stack. The original post should be re-worded to specify what is actually wanted.

The OP had stated he wanted crossbow sniper to take WIS as the primary attribute for damage instead of dex if the user has zen archery.

[Ewe]

Why then would we not change all ranged feats that apply to dexterity (or require a dexterity prerequisite) to use wisdom instead when zen archery is selected? (Why limit the scope only to Crossbow Sniper specifically?)

I believe the answer is because that is how the feats are in the Player's Hand Book II, and other source books these feats were drawn from. In other words, to answer the OP's original question, it's arbitrarily based on the source book.

[Zethrenx99]

Why then would we not change all ranged feats that apply to dexterity (or require a dexterity prerequisite) to use wisdom instead when zen archery is selected? (Why limit the scope only to Crossbow Sniper specifically?)

I believe the answer is because that is how the feats are in the Player's Hand Book II, and other source books these feats were drawn from. In other words, to answer the OP's original question, it's arbitrarily based on the source book.

Because it makes sense? Rapid fire (ability to quickly move your hand to the required position based on muscle memory). Many shot (The ability to move your hand quickly or hold multiple arrows in a single hand through muscle memory) But crossbow sniper can be argued through insight or intuition and not fast reflexes and muscle memory.

[chad878262]

6 cha, terribly ugly . Sometimes i wish nwn2 followed the death on 0 attribute rule as then a single feeble mind would insta kill this build.

This has nothing to do with determining the issues with the request. The point is that a Zen Archer Xbow sniper is power creep, doesn't matter how people build as we all know it happens regardless if you agree or disagree with min/maxing stats.

Without concentration you run the risk of being unable to use any of the cleric spells as most of them have very short duration and so it would be extremely unadvised.

Concentration only matters if you are getting hit AND taking damage. Maintaining distance, utilizing HiPS, having large AC, mirrors/displacement or heavy DR makes concentration unnecessary.

with 13 umd and -2 cha mod you would need a +4 cha item to even use wands and you will not be able to use spider skin scrolls without plant domain at that low of a umd.

Only need 11 UMD to use wands, Truthiness was building as a min/max and thus used the minimum UMD one would need. Why would you need spider skin scrolls when you can use spider skin wands (not to mention potions/elixirs).

26 wis would require a +4 wis item to get that additional 5th 6th and 7th slots that you get at 30's.

How is this relevant to the discussion? On any build you utilize stat items in some way or another and you can obviously wear an amulet +4 WIS when you rest and then cast (extended) Owl's Wisdom or use potions of Owl's Insight, at which point you can replace the amulet with (epic/greater) amulet of stealth.

Mithral breastplate also adds a -1 to your sneaking but it sounds like you want to drop ac for bearskin armor (which im unfamiliar with the stats on).

Bearskin Armor is Epic Breastplate +4. Truthiness already explained his build was hitting mid-60's for stealth which, while not great are enough for most area's.

In response to whatever that was chad did: I'm not the one argueing that the build is dramatically op and thus I'm not required to try and make the entire build for the opposing argument.

Actually, since the request is for a change to something that is currently not available, it is incumbent upon you to convince the dev/admin team that it would not be OP. Various detail has been provided as to why it is power creep and your arguments ignore all of this. If you'd like to see something added to the server or otherwise changed it is important to not only comment on how 'cool' it would be, but also to allay fears of any negative repercussions such as power creep. You haven't done this IMO, but if you feel you have then feel free to leave it as is... From what I see it is a straight power creep for xbow sniper builds to simply go WIS based instead of DEX based.

Additionally, dc for a lvl 30 caster vs level 25 cast is +1 in epic levels alone. +3 from feats and +3 from attribute points to a total of +7 which is nothing to scoff at.

Cleric 30 Xbow sniper vs. Cleric 30 with Epic Spell Focus is essentially the same build. The pure caster cleric has 3 more DC from Epic Spell Focus, but WIS will be the same and Xbow Sniper does significantly more damage while still being able to reach superb DCs. You make assumptions the Xbow Sniper would not take Great WIS, but they would. The difference in DC is 4, not 8 (assuming Prodigy which is a fair assumption). That is comparing apples to apples and is why I stated it's like a reserve feat, but it does 3-4 times the damage (over 100 vs. ~30 at best).

Take into consideration that monsters pass almost all their saves after level 15 as all mobs have very high saves, without +8 you are unlikely to get a destruction or implosion to even pass. So obviously less obvious than you had considered.

Simply not accurate. Frost Giants have something like 20 or 21 Fortitude and that is a CR 29 dungeon IIRC. So if your DC is 38 instead of 42 you are still highly likely to succeed with such a spell (though it seems a terrible waste to use level 9 spells on mobs)...

so lets look at apples to apples. wis based ranger vs dex based ranger. wis based ranger needs 14 dex still minimum. A dex based ranger requires a min of 10 wis.

DEX based Ranger needs 14 WIS to cast spells.

wis based ranger gets more ranger dc's (if that is even a thing) and at the extreme +2 spell slots.

At 26 WIS the Ranger gets 2 bonus spells PER LEVEL or 8 total. This is a huge help when Ranger Pet can be buffed as well as the Ranger. The whole reason WIS Rangers can be viable and fun today is because they can get a very strong pet and have lots of buff spells. XBow Sniper working would simply empower such a build further by giving a significant damage buff.

a dex based ranger gets 3 more ac than a wis based ranger.

This is not true. DEX based Ranger with 26 DEX (30 with Cats Grace) gets +10 AC. WIS based Ranger with 14 DEX (18 with Cat's Grace) and Mithril Chainmail (6/4 on BGtSCC) also has +10 AC. They are even unless the DEX Ranger min/maxes to reach 28/32 DEX for +1 AB/AC, but then the WIS based could min max as well for +1 AB/Damage.

A dex based ranger gets a higher str while a wis based ranger would have higher cha.

Why on EARTH would a WIS Ranger grab CHA???? A WIS Ranger will have 14 DEX, probably 11 or 13 CON, whatever INT they want for skill points and enough STR to do what they want while maxing WIS. CHA is ALWAYS a dump stat for Rangers. 6 or 8 is the norm... Except for my paladin dip Aasimar EDM Ranger, but that is another discussion.

Damage is the same...exactly what is it that wis based rangers are getting now as a free massive overpowered buff for nothing?

This is the crux of your misunderstanding. The point is simply that the WIS Based ranger gives up the damage potential to get the other stuff (Spells for a better pet without losing AC, etc.) DEX Ranger is for Damage, WIS Ranger is for pet/spells. Giving the WIS Ranger the damage too makes DEX Ranger completely useless. Why not also give Combat Insight Damage to ranged weaponry? Assassin archers will do backflips over that. Simply put I do not believe based on your response that you have a solid grasp on what a build loses and what it gains when making various build decisions. I also believe the change you have requested would be bad for server balance for the reasons I and others have outlined. End of the day devs/admins will make the decision, but if this is a FLAVOR you would truly like to see as opposed to a way to make something more powerful than I feel you need to come up with some compromises. In the past QC has rejected things like requests where DEX could be added to damage or could be utilized with medium/large weaponry for similar reasons. For those same reasons I doubt there would be much support to allow a scenario where WIS could be theoretically used for DCs, AC, AB, and Damage (not to mention Will saves) as it is a clear powerup for builds with WIS as a primary stat.

[Zethrenx99]

This is obnoxious so im going to hide it to keep the clutter down.

Hidden: show

Only need 11 UMD to use wands, Truthiness was building as a min/max and thus used the minimum UMD one would need. Why would you need spider skin scrolls when you can use spider skin wands (not to mention potions/elixirs).

Actually it looks like you only need 10, So my mistake thought it was 13. Scrolls are cheaper than wands and wand refil and can be made at higher CL which you need to get more than +3 from spider skin thus why you would use a scroll. Elixers are expensive as crap, I have a post on that already if you are interested.

How is this relevant to the discussion? On any build you utilize stat items in some way or another and you can obviously wear an amulet +4 WIS when you rest and then cast (extended) Owl's Wisdom or use potions of Owl's Insight, at which point you can replace the amulet with (epic/greater) amulet of stealth.

In fact an argument you make later in the effectiveness of wis based rangers being additional spell slots, so you tell me if it is relevant or not relevant.
your tactic would work i'd grant you, I am not as good as manipulating the mechanics. But you still run the risk losing all those benefits if you are on a prolonged adventure or occasionally RP. This is something we would call "a negative."

Bearskin Armor is Epic Breastplate +4. Truthiness already explained his build was hitting mid-60's for stealth which, while not great are enough for most area's.

Is it mithral? if not you lose AC and that was my point. I haven't done the math on the stealth myself for this build and im not familiar enough with all the items to make that sort of calculation though 60 seems high for only have a base of 35. That is +25 from items.

Actually, since the request is for a change to something that is currently not available, it is incumbent upon you to convince the dev/admin team that it would not be OP. Various detail has been provided as to why it is power creep and your arguments ignore all of this. If you'd like to see something added to the server or otherwise changed it is important to not only comment on how 'cool' it would be, but also to allay fears of any negative repercussions such as power creep. You haven't done this IMO, but if you feel you have then feel free to leave it as is... From what I see it is a straight power creep for xbow sniper builds to simply go WIS based instead of DEX based.

First off, its not my preposition I just agree with the posed change. Secondly, you are wrong. The most basic principle in an argument is that one poses their side, or suggestion in this case, the opposition gives their argument as to why it should not happen, then the original speaker gives their counter argument to break apart their opponents suggest or concede on their points. So no, again, i should not have to make my opponents argument for them with creating their own build and the build i created had the same resulting information as was given so it is entirely irrelevant.

Cleric 30 Xbow sniper vs. Cleric 30 with Epic Spell Focus is essentially the same build. The pure caster cleric has 3 more DC from Epic Spell Focus, but WIS will be the same and Xbow Sniper does significantly more damage while still being able to reach superb DCs. You make assumptions the Xbow Sniper would not take Great WIS, but they would. The difference in DC is 4, not 8 (assuming Prodigy which is a fair assumption). That is comparing apples to apples and is why I stated it's like a reserve feat, but it does 3-4 times the damage (over 100 vs. ~30 at best).

Lets keep context, if we now want to give the apples to apples argument then fine. Cleric vs Cleric. wis based, one has crossbow sniper for additional damage at the cost of 3-4 DC. A caster cleric has Empowered spell, Maximize spell, Epic spells. Spell casting (blasting) or dc casting is generally a poor build anyway when it comes to epic levels. 3-4 dc is nearly 25% stronger or 25% harder to resist on a d20 die roll. So hardly free.

Simply not accurate. Frost Giants have something like 20 or 21 Fortitude and that is a CR 29 dungeon IIRC. So if your DC is 38 instead of 42 you are still highly likely to succeed with such a spell (though it seems a terrible waste to use level 9 spells on mobs)...

Possibly, there was a post listing them at one point, but then again i have ran into trolls CR 18 trolls with 18 will saves. xvarts have some where around 16-18 fort saves at CR 15? my dc caster is only in that range so those are the only mobs i have tried. trolls have a fort save of 28-30 somewhere around there. So i don't think it is unaccurate and judging by the conversation i had on discord it seems alot of other people agree.

DEX based Ranger needs 14 WIS to cast spells.

I might be mistaken but if you have a wisdom item then you get the spell slots for divine casters, this is only an issue for classes that need to select spells as they level such as wizards. Thus they only need 10.

At 26 WIS the Ranger gets 2 bonus spells PER LEVEL or 8 total. This is a huge help when Ranger Pet can be buffed as well as the Ranger. The whole reason WIS Rangers can be viable and fun today is because they can get a very strong pet and have lots of buff spells. XBow Sniper working would simply empower such a build further by giving a significant damage buff.

all of the sudden bonus spell slots now are relevant. There is no argument there other than restating what i said and then blowing the significance of 2 more spells to some new league. I was not aware that having 12 rounds/level more flame blades was game changing. But i could be wrong as i don't play rangers here. My understanding of ranger pet builds was a response to druid pet builds where the character has more damage out put and does not need to be in the frontlines. So wis ranger vs dex ranger is even other than more spells for wis ranger and less ac, stealth, and other attributes.

This is not true. DEX based Ranger with 26 DEX (30 with Cats Grace) gets +10 AC. WIS based Ranger with 14 DEX (18 with Cat's Grace) and Mithril Chainmail (6/4 on BGtSCC) also has +10 AC. They are even unless the DEX Ranger min/maxes to reach 28/32 DEX for +1 AB/AC, but then the WIS based could min max as well for +1 AB/Damage.

This is entirely true, why does your dex based ranger not end with 32 dex +4 from item to 36 max? 36 dex means more ac vs 36 wisdom. AB and damage would be the same. and then stealth differences as i highlighted.

Why on EARTH would a WIS Ranger grab CHA???? A WIS Ranger will have 14 DEX, probably 11 or 13 CON, whatever INT they want for skill points and enough STR to do what they want while maxing WIS. CHA is ALWAYS a dump stat for Rangers. 6 or 8 is the norm... Except for my paladin dip Aasimar EDM Ranger, but that is another discussion.

Since we are talking about min maxing to the absolute extremes for the possibility of very tiny gains coming from this feat i used absolute extremes in my character tests to make my point. The only wis granting race is aasimar and aasimar gets a bonus to cha. Dex bonus races are plentiful but i went with tiefling as that is what was posed. Aasimar will have more cha because of base stats, Tiefling will have more str and or con and or intelligence.

So to finish, i understand your argument, i don't agree that wis rangers is even really a thing at least i have not seen one and that is because ranger spells are relatively weak compared to obvious other wis based pet builds (Druid comes to mind obviously). So ultimately it is a non issue as to disenfranchising wis rangers. If you are a thing could some one please try and explain it to me . When looking at what we are talking about which is the damage benefit of a ranged dex based ranger and a ranged wis base ranger there isn't much difference and where those differences are don't dramatically effect gameplay to scew the power one way or the other. Now maybe DC caster clerics will be able to do some damage and have lower DC's, but seeing as DC casting is uncommon already and clerics don't generally do anything if they arent a EDM EDS or SF dip crap which everyone agree's is op and several fixes in other servers have been applied to combat it. . . Also, i'm sure making an EDM build with this would be very attribute starved if not impossible.

[Truthiness]

This is obnoxious so im going to hide it to keep the clutter down.

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Only need 11 UMD to use wands, Truthiness was building as a min/max and thus used the minimum UMD one would need. Why would you need spider skin scrolls when you can use spider skin wands (not to mention potions/elixirs).

Actually it looks like you only need 10, So my mistake thought it was 13. Scrolls are cheaper than wands and wand refil and can be made at higher CL which you need to get more than +3 from spider skin thus why you would use a scroll. Elixers are expensive as crap, I have a post on that already if you are interested.

How is this relevant to the discussion? On any build you utilize stat items in some way or another and you can obviously wear an amulet +4 WIS when you rest and then cast (extended) Owl's Wisdom or use potions of Owl's Insight, at which point you can replace the amulet with (epic/greater) amulet of stealth.

In fact an argument you make later in the effectiveness of wis based rangers being additional spell slots, so you tell me if it is relevant or not relevant.
your tactic would work i'd grant you, I am not as good as manipulating the mechanics. But you still run the risk losing all those benefits if you are on a prolonged adventure or occasionally RP. This is something we would call "a negative."

Bearskin Armor is Epic Breastplate +4. Truthiness already explained his build was hitting mid-60's for stealth which, while not great are enough for most area's.

Is it mithral? if not you lose AC and that was my point. I haven't done the math on the stealth myself for this build and im not familiar enough with all the items to make that sort of calculation though 60 seems high for only have a base of 35. That is +25 from items.

Actually, since the request is for a change to something that is currently not available, it is incumbent upon you to convince the dev/admin team that it would not be OP. Various detail has been provided as to why it is power creep and your arguments ignore all of this. If you'd like to see something added to the server or otherwise changed it is important to not only comment on how 'cool' it would be, but also to allay fears of any negative repercussions such as power creep. You haven't done this IMO, but if you feel you have then feel free to leave it as is... From what I see it is a straight power creep for xbow sniper builds to simply go WIS based instead of DEX based.

First off, its not my preposition I just agree with the posed change. Secondly, you are wrong. The most basic principle in an argument is that one poses their side, or suggestion in this case, the opposition gives their argument as to why it should not happen, then the original speaker gives their counter argument to break apart their opponents suggest or concede on their points. So no, again, i should not have to make my opponents argument for them with creating their own build and the build i created had the same resulting information as was given so it is entirely irrelevant.

Cleric 30 Xbow sniper vs. Cleric 30 with Epic Spell Focus is essentially the same build. The pure caster cleric has 3 more DC from Epic Spell Focus, but WIS will be the same and Xbow Sniper does significantly more damage while still being able to reach superb DCs. You make assumptions the Xbow Sniper would not take Great WIS, but they would. The difference in DC is 4, not 8 (assuming Prodigy which is a fair assumption). That is comparing apples to apples and is why I stated it's like a reserve feat, but it does 3-4 times the damage (over 100 vs. ~30 at best).

Lets keep context, if we now want to give the apples to apples argument then fine. Cleric vs Cleric. wis based, one has crossbow sniper for additional damage at the cost of 3-4 DC. A caster cleric has Empowered spell, Maximize spell, Epic spells. Spell casting (blasting) or dc casting is generally a poor build anyway when it comes to epic levels. 3-4 dc is nearly 25% stronger or 25% harder to resist on a d20 die roll. So hardly free.

Simply not accurate. Frost Giants have something like 20 or 21 Fortitude and that is a CR 29 dungeon IIRC. So if your DC is 38 instead of 42 you are still highly likely to succeed with such a spell (though it seems a terrible waste to use level 9 spells on mobs)...

Possibly, there was a post listing them at one point, but then again i have ran into trolls CR 18 trolls with 18 will saves. xvarts have some where around 16-18 fort saves at CR 15? my dc caster is only in that range so those are the only mobs i have tried. trolls have a fort save of 28-30 somewhere around there. So i don't think it is unaccurate and judging by the conversation i had on discord it seems alot of other people agree.

DEX based Ranger needs 14 WIS to cast spells.

I might be mistaken but if you have a wisdom item then you get the spell slots for divine casters, this is only an issue for classes that need to select spells as they level such as wizards. Thus they only need 10.

At 26 WIS the Ranger gets 2 bonus spells PER LEVEL or 8 total. This is a huge help when Ranger Pet can be buffed as well as the Ranger. The whole reason WIS Rangers can be viable and fun today is because they can get a very strong pet and have lots of buff spells. XBow Sniper working would simply empower such a build further by giving a significant damage buff.

all of the sudden bonus spell slots now are relevant. There is no argument there other than restating what i said and then blowing the significance of 2 more spells to some new league. I was not aware that having 12 rounds/level more flame blades was game changing. But i could be wrong as i don't play rangers here. My understanding of ranger pet builds was a response to druid pet builds where the character has more damage out put and does not need to be in the frontlines. So wis ranger vs dex ranger is even other than more spells for wis ranger and less ac, stealth, and other attributes.

This is not true. DEX based Ranger with 26 DEX (30 with Cats Grace) gets +10 AC. WIS based Ranger with 14 DEX (18 with Cat's Grace) and Mithril Chainmail (6/4 on BGtSCC) also has +10 AC. They are even unless the DEX Ranger min/maxes to reach 28/32 DEX for +1 AB/AC, but then the WIS based could min max as well for +1 AB/Damage.

This is entirely true, why does your dex based ranger not end with 32 dex +4 from item to 36 max? 36 dex means more ac vs 36 wisdom. AB and damage would be the same. and then stealth differences as i highlighted.

Why on EARTH would a WIS Ranger grab CHA???? A WIS Ranger will have 14 DEX, probably 11 or 13 CON, whatever INT they want for skill points and enough STR to do what they want while maxing WIS. CHA is ALWAYS a dump stat for Rangers. 6 or 8 is the norm... Except for my paladin dip Aasimar EDM Ranger, but that is another discussion.

Since we are talking about min maxing to the absolute extremes for the possibility of very tiny gains coming from this feat i used absolute extremes in my character tests to make my point. The only wis granting race is aasimar and aasimar gets a bonus to cha. Dex bonus races are plentiful but i went with tiefling as that is what was posed. Aasimar will have more cha because of base stats, Tiefling will have more str and or con and or intelligence.

So to finish, i understand your argument, i don't agree that wis rangers is even really a thing at least i have not seen one and that is because ranger spells are relatively weak compared to obvious other wis based pet builds (Druid comes to mind obviously). So ultimately it is a non issue as to disenfranchising wis rangers. If you are a thing could some one please try and explain it to me . When looking at what we are talking about which is the damage benefit of a ranged dex based ranger and a ranged wis base ranger there isn't much difference and where those differences are don't dramatically effect gameplay to scew the power one way or the other. Now maybe DC caster clerics will be able to do some damage and have lower DC's, but seeing as DC casting is uncommon already and clerics don't generally do anything if they arent a EDM EDS or SF dip crap which everyone agree's is op and several fixes in other servers have been applied to combat it. . . Also, i'm sure making an EDM build with this would be very attribute starved if not impossible.

I went with 13 umd for the build as with the -2 cha mod, it gets to 11. Which is enough to use wands and crossclass items.

Both wis based and any other ranger has the same issue with having to equip wisdom or spell slot gear to cast spells, but if you only start with 10 base wis, then you lose all your spells the moment you lose that +4 wisdom... which is a far bigger negative than what the wisdom ranger would lose. So starting with 14 wis as Chad has said is much safer.

Bearskin Armor is a Mithral Breastplate with +4 AC, +2 fort, bear's endurance 1/day (CL 15) and a few different skills. It does give -1 to hide/ms, but you have enough to sneak past the majority of things. As far as how I thought to reach 66/63 hide/ms... (which is apparently only 65/62 MS)
+3 hide/ms from Cloaked Amulet
+4 hide/ms from Greater Cloak of the Stalker
+4 hide/ms from Sleightly's Sleight of Hand
+2 hide/ms from each ring, Assassin's Finger
+6 hide/5 ms from Ninja Cowl, Epic +4/3 hide/ms and +2 hide/ms from stealthy
+4 hide/ms from Ninja Boots, Epic
33 base hide/ms, +5 from dex, +1 from wild child, -1 from breastplate.

[Kaeldre]

First of all, I want to express my gratitude to all who have taken the time to offer their piece of mind to this discussion. Having such a broad spectrum of players offer their thoughts on this matter really help in identifying the benefits and issues that may be inherent in its potential implementation. After all, if anything new is to be implemented on this server, it should do so under great scrutiny. Thats the best way to further quality content along. Secondly, I must apologize. As I am about to unleash an intolerably long wall of text upon you all. Brace yourselves!

Reply to Truthiness:

Intuition isn't about conscious control, it's not lining up shots consciously. It's basically your brain on auto-pilot. Crossbow sniper doesn't aid in stabilizing your weapon, it's based off of your ability to stabilize and precisely shoot, which would be more hand-eye coordination, aka dexterity. If you can think of a reason that someone who doesn't consciously control their shots would get a bonus to damage equal to someone who does, then I'm all ears. Maybe a lesser bonus to the crossbow sniper would work, .5 with weapon focus, 1 with master crossbow sniper, to represent the fact that the person isn't consciously controlling their shots, instead just using intuition to guide them (and if it's not just intuition, then there's no reason for it to change from dex to wis ).

Strangely enough, I agree on a lot of the points you are making. Although, not all of them. I agree that intuition is not about concious control. I also agree that the effects of crossbow sniper, the bonus damage, can stem from stability and precision. What I dont agree with is the end of your third sentence. That learning to stabilize your weapon and the benefits of it would fall exclusively into the category of hand-eye coordination and concious control. I would argue that stabilizing your weapon is a learned skill, like all other ranged feats. Just like you can learn to nock two arrows or bolts and shoot them simultaneously, whilst letting intuition guide their trajectory, I would argue that you can stabilize your weapon and reap the benefits of it in similar fashion.

I also agree that it is a good idea to implement this change in a scaled down version. Even if is not for the reasons you listed. I was not aware that elixirs would become such a staple, and that using owl's insight in combination would be allowed. Thus, being cautious and taking things slow is ideal.

As for builds, it took me 5 minutes to come up with a build that would hit for 70+ on manyshot, with 50+ AB and 50+ AC, with all the nice defenses that cleric buffs give and some epic-level saves. It hits for 80+ with owl's insight, too. Has plenty of spells and decent DCs. Cleric 26/monk 4. Not using any consumables, just a brooch of shielding. If it has consumables like greater heroism potions or IMA wands, it can reach even higher (especially with owl's insight, it could easily be at 60~ AB). With longterm buffs, it has 45+ AC and 40~ AB, which is solid enough to still do decent amounts of damage and survive, while still doing 70+ on manyshot. I imagine if I put in some time to it, I could come up with a much better build, probably using assassin. Hell, cleric 21/assassin 9 would be very powerful, and very hard to kill. (A dex version of it would be decent, a wis version of it would be amazing)

I created the build on NWN2DB: http://nwn2db.com/build/?303886

The stats and calculations can be found in the build link above. Check the tab labelled notes. Here's a few other links for comparison:

Crossbow fighter: http://nwn2db.com/build/?303887

DC cleric: http://nwn2db.com/build/?303888

To summarize, your build has 10 less DC than a dedicated DC cleric. Your build also looses 4-8 AB (counting elixirs or not) and 30 damage per shot compared to the crossbow fighter. My point here is to prove that this change would make hybrid builds that are clearly worse DC casters and crossbowman compared to their dedicated counterparts. Whereas the latter is solely for a short duration compared to consistent performance.

Fighter crossbowers have crappy saves, have to use consumables to buff them, and rely heavily on hips or consumables for defense. They do a bit more damage, yes. 85+, But not 100+ damage that you're talking about, unless they go for ranger 26/fighter 4 (which is around 97~ per manyshot with the epic crossbow, but only vs favored enemies), which would just be superior wisdom based (instead doing 109~ per shot with owl's insight elixirs or buffed by a druid, and fixing their lowest save along with giving them plenty of spells). If you're talking about 100+ with assassin death attack, then yes, but then they lose out on AB and saves even more, and only get that amazing damage on the first shot (or first two with haste). Wisdom based would fix their low will save as well.

Reflex save is the least important save out of the three. As there are very few spells that can instantly screw you over if you fail a reflex save, compared to fort or will.

I'll refer to the crossbow fighter build I posted earlier when discussing this section of your post. Crossbow fighters have high reflex saves, medium fortitude saves and low will saves. The build I posted has maxed UMD meaning it can compensate with scrolls if needed. For long term solutions they can mitigate the low will save through protection from alignment wands. Not too expensive either. In conclusion, you will find that the cleric build you detailed does not live up to the crossbow fighter builds in terms of ranged prowess.

You are also comparing ranger builds, more specifically the dex and wis version. What you will find is that you get some minor extra damage, more spells and some better will saves at the expense of reflex, hide and move silently. A fair trade if you ask me, especially since you can get mind immunity from protection from alignment to mitigate the lacking will.

EDIT: I took the time and theorycrafted a cleric 21/assassin 9, wis based, and it's indeed very powerful. (Let's say of Silvanus for powerbuilding reasons) With the crossbow belt (Rapid Reload and Improved Crit, +3 Dex), and not using a crossbow with mighty, as that would more put it in the cleric's favor in terms of damage.
AC = 10 + 5 (Mithral Breastplate) + 5 (Dex) + 5 (Armor) + 5 (Deflect) + 5 (Natural) + 4 (Dodge) + 3 (Tumble) = 42 AC with longterm buffs (with hips) + 4 (Shield from Brooch of Shielding) + 3 (Recitation) + 1 (Haste) = 50 AC (-10 if you have stonebody up, but that pretty much makes you immune to everything)
AB with longterm buffs = 21 + 10 (Wis) + 4 (EB) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 3 (Spells) = 39 AB (but with hips to deny dodge/dex, so it's more than enough)
AB with shortterm buffs = 30 + 10 (Wis) + 4 (EB) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 8 (Spells) = 53 AB (+4 with Greater Heroism potion, + 4 with Owl's Insight elixir for a total of 61 AB, which is much higher than any dex build with assassin can reach alone)
Damage with longterm buffs = 1d10 + 15 (Wis) + 4 (EB) + 1d4 (epic crossbow) + 1d4 (bolts) = 59~ (71~ with Owl's Insight), which isn't too high, but that's without sneak dice, which puts it up to 94~ (106~ with Owl's Insight)
Damage with shortterm buffs = 1d10 + 15 (Wis) + 4 EB) + 1d4 (epic crossbow) + 1d4 (bolts) + 3 (divine favor) + 1 (prayer) = 67~ (79~ with Owl's Insight), with sneak dice it goes up to 102~ (114~ with Owl's Insight)
Now with Owl's Insight, it reaches almost the same damage as the highest damage crossbow builds out there (ranger 21/assassin 9 or fighter 12/EA 5/assassin 9/AK or WoD 4), while having MUCH greater saves and defenses, due to cleric spells and high wis. It can invest into sneak gear same as the ranger while still maintaining high AC due to spells. It's AB is far higher shortterm than either of those builds can do (Ranger 21/assassin 9 capping out at 53~ AB vs favored enemies with Haste and Greater Heroism up, and the fighter version with 55~ AB).
Overall, because of Owl's Insight existing and being available, it's better than any dex versions of the same build, and there would be more wis crossbow snipers than dex if it was added with full damage. I don't think it makes any sense conceptually, but if it is added, I agree with chambo on making it reduced damage, .5 for the normal crossbow sniper, 1 for master crossbow sniper (with weapon focus).

So, this build has been discussed earlier in the thread as well. Here's a link: http://nwn2db.com/build/?303769. It couldn't afford to fill tumble, so you loose 2 AC compared to your calculations. You'll find that the build I posted has slightly higher AB, making it quite the accurate hipster with those flat-footed bonues. It still looses in terms of AB and damage. Saves is a fair point, but one could argue the importance of it in relation to hips. As you are able to interrupt most people casting spells with your first shots and able to cancel any targeting you with a well timed hide click.

Build comparison, by virtue of metaquad4: http://nwn2db.com/build/?228728

Reply to Chad

rather than compare to EDM Cleric it's best to compare apples to apples. For example, today look at what a DEX based Ra21/A9 can do with Xbow Sniper vs. what a WIS based Ranger can do tomorrow should this be implemented. First off the immediate benefit is more spells (DEX for AB/AC/Damage vs. WIS For AB/Damage/more spell slots). As to AC, well 14 DEX and Mithral Chainmail is going to end up giving you 10 AC same as if you had 26 DEX (30 w/ Cats Grace) so you get more spells and assuming equal stat distribution (14 WIS, max DEX vs. 14 DEX, max WIS) you retain your AC, AB and Damage. It is a flat upgrade. Skillpoints are a non-issue since Ranger gets 6/level and Assassin 4/level and there is no difference in feats you'll take.

Have we had a compared EDM clerics yet? I dont think we have, or have I missed it?

I agree with most of what you've written here, except the last parts. There is still a trade-off in terms of what skills you will be boosting with your attribute choices. Going for dexterity naturally lends to hide and move silently, giving uncapped bonuses. For this you trade in more spells per day for less hide and move silently. The saves are less important here, for many the reasons I've detailed above. Will can always be negated by protection from alignment. Changing from dex to wisdom will lower your reflex, but it is not a large decrease, so it is a non-issue. While you are saying that it is a flat upgrade, I would argue that it is a fair trade-off.

So this would be a flat power-up, you aren't giving up anything, just gaining which I think is kind of the point some folks have been making in this thread. You talk about providing builds, but yours is only half done. No detail around class distribution, feat allocation, AC/AB/Damage calculations, etc. However, a Crossbow Sniper Cleric is a VERY dangerous thing. With that much WIS they are only ~3 DC worse in one spell school then a dedicated caster cleric so arguing their DCs are somehow rubbish by taking xbow feats is a false statement. Implosion DC will literally be 3 points different so 39 instead of 42 if you want to use 42 as your example of max. Taking elixirs in to account isn't pointless either because while they help caster clerics and xbow snipers equally for spell DCs the added benefit for the xbow sniper is long duration massive buff to AB, damage and spell DC vs. only spell DC for the caster. The whole negative about being a focused caster is the need to understand and manage spell economy. This idea of zen archery crossbow sniper basically is a way to build a focused caster (so long as WIS is the casting stat) that has the ultimate reserve feat. Instead of doing ~30 damage max with whatever your reserve feat is you are doing over 100 with more on a crit while still being able to unload massive DC on bosses.

Your first concerns have been remedied!

When it comes to difference in DC between dedicated DC casters and crossbow clerics I will refer you to the links above. They detail a 10 DC difference between these two builds. You can always switch the crossbow cleric to be better at casting, but that will only net you around 1-4 DC from feats. In essence, I think your analysis is wrong in this instance.

Elixirs will buff crossbow clerics more than DC casters, this is definitely true. Judging by the numbers in the links above I still see some very good reasons to pick a DC caster over the crossbow cleric, and vice versa. The typical crossbow cleric wont deal over 100 damage per shot, unless you multiclass into assassin. Their massive DC will usually lie around 33 and 35, which can then be buffed by elixirs for pretty good values. Still far from what a DC cleric will accomplish, though. Again I refer to the links above.

Not sure why this isn't more obvious, there would need to be a bit more mitigation than what has been discussed...Otherwise it is a clear powerup with nothing mitigating it.

We have discussed mitigation, and I've said that a 0,5 modifier to damage for the crossbow sniper feat and a 1,0 modifier for the crossbow sniper master feat is very reasonable. Doing any more than this, would in my opinion, make this change obsolete.

[Kaeldre]

Why then would we not change all ranged feats that apply to dexterity (or require a dexterity prerequisite) to use wisdom instead when zen archery is selected? (Why limit the scope only to Crossbow Sniper specifically?)

The answer to this is simple. Because there only is two ranged feats that apply to dexterity (excluding pre-requisities). The two crossbow sniper feats. All other ranged feats give flat bonuses which does not scale with any attribute modifier. Thus, they can still be used by both DEX and WIS characters. The pre-requisites does not change this in their current state.

I believe the answer is because that is how the feats are in the Player's Hand Book II, and other source books these feats were drawn from. In other words, to answer the OP's original question, it's arbitrarily based on the source book.

I think the source book is a good baseline to go by. Much of what is detailed in them makes much sense. I do not think that we should not be restricted by it, however, and if the community feels that there is a change that would make the game more enjoyable, which is within the realms of realism and manageable timeframes then I believe that is something worth to consider for change.

[electric mayhem]

STR - I can carry this crossbow, hold the heavy weighted frame steady for firing and pull the firing bolt back easily. I'm beefcake
DEX - I can work my fingers quickly and easily around the mechanical workings of the crossbow. I can make controlled minute changes to the way I hold the crossbow, coordinated with my eyesight.
CON - I've got decent body endurance to take the strain shock from repetitious firing of the crossbow.
INT - I have the smarts to know where to target an enemy and do the most damage. I have the smarts to recognise that the light breeze a few dozen yards away will affect the flight of my shot. I can possibly use that metallic shield carried by my targets companion, to bounce a shot off it and get my target around the corner.
WIS - If I fire my crossbow now at my target, the 30 other companions with it, being sprinters, will be on my before i can unload another shot. Perhaps this may not be the best time to attack.
CHA - When those companions catch me, I could try bluffing my way out by affixing blame on "that one armed gnome I saw run that way!"