Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

The offline mode is a different beast and even there I can make a semi/full powerbuild that doesn't need any other character to finish the game with out a problem.
However I can also increase the difficulty by going for a RP build and don't max out my levels to give myself a bit of a challenge.
But lets not pretend BG/NWW/NWN2 are even remotely balanced, making Saverok 5 levels lower wouldn't have mattered much in terms of game challenge.

The NWN2 palemaster has very little to do with what a pnp palemaster and truth be told I find it a huge led down, no matter how you buff or nerf it.
Besides you have an unarmed swashbuckler vampire which makes no sense while pnp palemaster picks a cohort.

I do agree with you that there needs to be a challenge but if the way of making the game more challenging is by not implanting content and nerfing classes I think you're looking at it the wrong way.

Besides most content is designed around the fact that you can solo it in the first place, thus why nerf classes for doing exactly what you made the content for. All you do with these changes is delay the run a bit or make them chunk a potion or 10 more but that is it.
When you look at the epic levels it matters very little as a group of six can take out about anything if they buff up a bit with out too much effort.


Just some quick brainstorming.


- More diversity amongst mobs. When you start building a character on this server you pretty much know what is there and how to deal with it. The tactics are pretty straight forward since you usually have to take 2-3 type of mobs into account which aren't designed around being utterly annoying.
Let's take the gnoll cave for example and say we add 3 new type of gnolls.


1: One gnoll that uses haste on other gnolls and other buff spells
2: A gnoll that uses blind strike/knock down etc.
3: Just another heavy hitter.

Now increase the spawn amount and you will force people to group up as the dungeon exploits the weakness that even power builds have.



- The random spawns you get on the roads are one of the best things you can have, in fact I would love more of them all across the board.
Let them be dangerous and let them kill people if they run around alone with out taking it into account.
However also let people avoid them if they happen to have a high amount of spot/listen.


- By removing rules and nerfs and introducing for example all of Kaedrins pack you get to a point were every one is quite powerful, you can tune encounters around that fact. Currently you balance around the issue that there is a huge gap between power because the strong builds you try to nerf are still very good while the weaker builds got weaker because of the nerfs.


With that all said I've nothing but respect for the amount of work people have been put into the server and realizing these suggestions mean ' more work' and there is the possibility that I'm dead wrong about what makes the game fun for every one.

ARHicks00 wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 3:30 pm 1. Some builds take more than just 13 to 15 levels for their character to get true fruition and if you want to lower than bar than you make it where the characters don't go pass level one and enemies give no XP. Exaggeration is not a good discussion point, but can lead to arguments as it is a form sarcasm/cynicism.

2. Spells would have to do the same in terms of only going up to +3.

3. That is already the case in many dungeons as it requires levels of Rogue just to get through or levels of druid to get items from bushes.

Alright, I'll bite.

1. "True fruition?" What does this even mean? Because, even using the 3b20 rule, I could do a 3 Base Class / 10 PrC and thus hit "fruition." 13 Fighter is fruition. Because, actually, any amount of Levels is fruition depending on the CONTEXT of the Adventure. That is D&D, my friend.

2. Most spells hit +4 at Level 16, so yes, they would also only reach +3. However, temporary buffs should be higher than permanent ones. Think about it.

3. What dungeon on BGTSCC requires a Rogue? There is only 1 Area that requires a group effort to progress. Okay, maybe 2 Areas. There is actually only 1 Area that has a Iron Chest that needs Open Lock skills, as otherwise, any Build can just bash away with impunity (and only slight damage).

But back on point, if "D&D lies more in story telling/rp/socializing" then any arbitrary set of mechanics, works. Essentially, there is NO ARGUMENT LEFT, and the Staff of BGTSCC can do whatever they want, because storytelling does not require mechanics, nor does RP, nor does socializing.

But I, and I assume quite a few others, are actually playing on BGTSCC for the mechanics and also NOT to just engage in a Chat Room with D&D-influenced avatars. Can I get a witness?!?

But I, and I assume quite a few others, are actually playing on BGTSCC for the mechanics and also NOT to just engage in a Chat Room with D&D-influences avatars. Can I get a witness?!?

Yup, I was about to write this. Engaging in chat room RP can be fun, but I simply can't do it for too long. Often many of these conversations seem so close to IRL discussions, which is what I'm trying to get away from.

I think there needs to be some separation of issues here. Implementing some nerfs doesn't mean new content isn't being worked on. It's possible to have two thoughts in mind at the same time.

I'm fairly well versed in nwn2 mechanics, and I don't think adding the full kaedrin pack unchanged would do anything other than move line on mob design. Even favoured soul is superior in kaedrin's pack because it gets a lot more bonus epic feats. I also know very well that you can - to the extreme detriment of versatility - indeed build for 46 DC wail of the banshee. For a good aligned character, you can't though. Highest you can get with a good aligned mage is 41. Druids are easier.

I can't say I know what build your pure fighter was like, ARHicks00, but I've played very successfully a rogue16/shadowdancer10/whirling dervish4. That's by no means a powerful build. Sure, it has epic dodge and HiPS, but no one goes shadowdancer10 for power. It's a terrible PRC beyond level 3 (or 5 for a small number of builds, chiefly monks). Whirling dervish is also really a waste, other than to get those skill bonuses. I've also played almost pure fighters (or sort of - I had a rogue4/fighter18/divine champion8), and that has worked fine for me - even solo.

No, you can't solo the entire server with these builds. But you can solo about 95% of it if you really want to. But if it's about story telling and RP, why would you want to?

And who ever made you think that the areas of the server are designed for solo play, Calen? The CR is, if I recall correctly, set based on party play. If you go into a CR 18 area, it is CR 18 for a party (3-6 players) of level 18s. Moreover, we have dungeons that you cannot do alone at all, such as the stone giant dungeon. The server is very much designed for party play. The fact that people work out ways to solo the server doesn't mean it was designed for them to do so. We're always looking for good ways to encourage more partying, and in fact the chest change was exactly that - in the past there was only that much loot in a chest and the party had to share, so a lot of people just went soloing for as much loot as possible. Now, people can group up and RP while looting without losing out on loot.

You know, if you do want to solo with subpar builds, that's fine - I've done it loads too! In fact, I never enjoyed playing one of those really powerful PvE builds - dragon druid (I loved the RP, but the mechanics were really boring...). And if you're struggling with how to do it, there are several people on the forums who can offer you tips to make it easier, even without changing your builds! So ask for help and we'll give it!

And Steve, no PRC allows you to start before level 6! That is a core D&D design from Dungeon Master's Guide!

Steve wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 4:38 pm Alright, I'll bite.

1. "True fruition?" What does this even mean? Because, even using the 3b20 rule, I could do a 3 Base Class / 10 PrC and thus hit "fruition." 13 Fighter is fruition. Because, actually, any amount of Levels is fruition depending on the CONTEXT of the Adventure. That is D&D, my friend.

2. Most spells hit +4 at Level 16, so yes, they would also only reach +3. However, temporary buffs should be higher than permanent ones. Think about it.

3. What dungeon on BGTSCC requires a Rogue? There is only 1 Area that requires a group effort to progress. Okay, maybe 2 Areas. There is actually only 1 Area that has a Iron Chest that needs Open Lock skills, as otherwise, any Build can just bash away with impunity (and only slight damage).

But back on point, if "D&D lies more in story telling/rp/socializing" then any arbitrary set of mechanics, works. Essentially, there is NO ARGUMENT LEFT, and the Staff of BGTSCC can do whatever they want, because storytelling does not require mechanics, nor does RP, nor does socializing.

But I, and I assume quite a few others, are actually playing on BGTSCC for the mechanics and also NOT to just engage in a Chat Room with D&D-influenced avatars. Can I get a witness?!?

1. My point was if levels do not matter then why go pass level 1?

2. Practice spellcaster allows you to go over 4 levels.

3. Nearly every dungeon has traps or locks that need picking.

RagingPeace wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 4:49 pm

But I, and I assume quite a few others, are actually playing on BGTSCC for the mechanics and also NOT to just engage in a Chat Room with D&D-influences avatars. Can I get a witness?!?

Yup, I was about to write this. Engaging in chat room RP can be fun, but I simply can't do it for too long. Often many of these conversations seem so close to IRL discussions, which is what I'm trying to get away from.

What does the statement have to do with class nerfs? No one is saying you have to exclusively RP when playing any server rather DND-related games are about RP than action RPG and challenging content. You don't need either one of those to enjoy RP.

Deathgrowl wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 5:25 pm

And Steve, no PRC allows you to start before level 6! That is a core D&D design from Dungeon Master's Guide!

Nitpicking, DG!!! Nitpicking!

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread ... re-level-6

Anyway, Level 16 max then. LOL.

Deathgrowl wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 5:25 pm I think there needs to be some separation of issues here. Implementing some nerfs doesn't mean new content isn't being worked on. It's possible to have two thoughts in mind at the same time.

No one is saying new content is not added rather new content is limited by the nerf minded concept. This need to limit powergaming results in less viable build and less attractiveness to play. In a way, class nerfing hurts diversity and gameplay. Who wants to play in a server where the only class that has a easy time is the mage?

Deathgrowl wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 5:25 pm I'm fairly well versed in nwn2 mechanics, and I don't think adding the full kaedrin pack unchanged would do anything other than move line on mob design. Even favoured soul is superior in kaedrin's pack because it gets a lot more bonus epic feats. I also know very well that you can - to the extreme detriment of versatility - indeed build for 46 DC wail of the banshee. For a good aligned character, you can't though. Highest you can get with a good aligned mage is 41. Druids are easier.

My point was that balance in DnD for PvP reason is impossible due the versatility of certain classes.

Deathgrowl wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 5:25 pmI can't say I know what build your pure fighter was like, ARHicks00, but I've played very successfully a rogue16/shadowdancer10/whirling dervish4. That's by no means a powerful build. Sure, it has epic dodge and HiPS, but no one goes shadowdancer10 for power. It's a terrible PRC beyond level 3 (or 5 for a small number of builds, chiefly monks). Whirling dervish is also really a waste, other than to get those skill bonuses. I've also played almost pure fighters (or sort of - I had a rogue4/fighter18/divine champion8), and that has worked fine for me - even solo.

Shield bash fighter with medicore saves. Did good damage and got a 40ish AC, but that is all it can do because at higher levels, it missed a lot despite being 2 AB short of my pure fighter's usual feats. It does badly due to the limit save items, but also have to deal with multiple epic enemues with huge HP pools and AB/damage greater than 25. A combination of level 6 to 9 spells and huge AB often leads me finding myself in the fugue quite often at the start of a battle. At epic levels I often have to watch in the backlines when we deal with the frost giants.

Also you can't compare your build with a pure fighter for obvious reasons. HIPS and Epic Dodge adds more survivability than just +4 armament.

Deathgrowl wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 5:25 pm No, you can't solo the entire server with these builds. But you can solo about 95% of it if you really want to. But if it's about story telling and RP, why would you want to?

And who ever made you think that the areas of the server are designed for solo play, Calen? The CR is, if I recall correctly, set based on party play. If you go into a CR 18 area, it is CR 18 for a party (3-6 players) of level 18s. Moreover, we have dungeons that you cannot do alone at all, such as the stone giant dungeon. The server is very much designed for party play. The fact that people work out ways to solo the server doesn't mean it was designed for them to do so. We're always looking for good ways to encourage more partying, and in fact the chest change was exactly that - in the past there was only that much loot in a chest and the party had to share, so a lot of people just went soloing for as much loot as possible. Now, people can group up and RP while looting without losing out on loot.

You misunderstood. I am not asking for solo content rather most players who want super challenging content only want super challenging content in PW servers to make up for NWN2's lack of challenging solo content.

Deathgrowl wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 5:25 pmYou know, if you do want to solo with subpar builds, that's fine - I've done it loads too! In fact, I never enjoyed playing one of those really powerful PvE builds - dragon druid (I loved the RP, but the mechanics were really boring...). And if you're struggling with how to do it, there are several people on the forums who can offer you tips to make it easier, even without changing your builds! So ask for help and we'll give it!

I often play what I call 'compentent builds.' For example a Fighter/Rogue/Weapon Master/Anointed Knight with Kaedrin Pack. Does a lot of damage, high saves, can disable traps, pick locks, and is resistant to spells. Despite all those factors, on Daleland Beyond and Skullport, he still got 'pwned' by epic level enemies in large groups or killed by enemies with acid spells. I don't try to make god tier builds.

ARHicks00 wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 5:28 pm

Steve wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 4:38 pm Alright, I'll bite.

1. "True fruition?" What does this even mean? Because, even using the 3b20 rule, I could do a 3 Base Class / 10 PrC and thus hit "fruition." 13 Fighter is fruition. Because, actually, any amount of Levels is fruition depending on the CONTEXT of the Adventure. That is D&D, my friend.

2. Most spells hit +4 at Level 16, so yes, they would also only reach +3. However, temporary buffs should be higher than permanent ones. Think about it.

3. What dungeon on BGTSCC requires a Rogue? There is only 1 Area that requires a group effort to progress. Okay, maybe 2 Areas. There is actually only 1 Area that has a Iron Chest that needs Open Lock skills, as otherwise, any Build can just bash away with impunity (and only slight damage).

But back on point, if "D&D lies more in story telling/rp/socializing" then any arbitrary set of mechanics, works. Essentially, there is NO ARGUMENT LEFT, and the Staff of BGTSCC can do whatever they want, because storytelling does not require mechanics, nor does RP, nor does socializing.

But I, and I assume quite a few others, are actually playing on BGTSCC for the mechanics and also NOT to just engage in a Chat Room with D&D-influenced avatars. Can I get a witness?!?

1. My point was if levels do not matter then why go pass level 1?

2. Practice spellcaster allows you to go over 4 levels.

3. Nearly every dungeon has traps or locks that need picking.

RagingPeace wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 4:49 pm

But I, and I assume quite a few others, are actually playing on BGTSCC for the mechanics and also NOT to just engage in a Chat Room with D&D-influences avatars. Can I get a witness?!?

Yup, I was about to write this. Engaging in chat room RP can be fun, but I simply can't do it for too long. Often many of these conversations seem so close to IRL discussions, which is what I'm trying to get away from.

What does the statement have to do with class nerfs? No one is saying you have to exclusively RP when playing any server rather DND-related games are about RP than action RPG and challenging content. You don't need either one of those to enjoy RP.

Merely that people enjoy different things, some of us focus more on PVE/PVP related RP and as such balancing/nerfing matters more to some. Suppose I am playing my malarite bear warrior and I keep running into monk-druids of Silvanus.

Now that Cleric's has been given the Nerf bat, perhaps we should look into Buffing up Warpriest, as it currently stands, it is a utterly useless class with a rather expensive feat and Skills tax and in returns it gives very little. I Suggest buffing up their Capstone, removing the speed penalty, giving a bit of a damage boost to Cleric and party, Raising Cater level from 5/10 to 8/10 and removing the skills entry as it is a bit punishing for Clerics.

If you're going to take, why not give in return?

edmaster wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 6:49 pm Now that Cleric's has been given the Nerf bat, perhaps we should look into Buffing up Warpriest, as it currently stands, it is a utterly useless class with a rather expensive feat and Skills tax and in returns it gives very little. I Suggest buffing up their Capstone, removing the speed penalty, giving a bit of a damage boost to Cleric and party, Raising Cater level from 5/10 to 8/10 and removing the skills entry as it is a bit punishing for Clerics.

This is a valid suggestion. I'll take it to QC with some ideas tomorrow (after I've slept, it's 1am and I have work!).

edmaster wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 6:49 pm Now that Cleric's has been given the Nerf bat, perhaps we should look into Buffing up Warpriest, as it currently stands, it is a utterly useless class with a rather expensive feat and Skills tax and in returns it gives very little. I Suggest buffing up their Capstone, removing the speed penalty, giving a bit of a damage boost to Cleric and party, Raising Cater level from 5/10 to 8/10 and removing the skills entry as it is a bit punishing for Clerics.

If you're going to take, why not give in return?

Fist of the Scarce Flame class needs a 10/10 instead of 8/10 considering you need 6 levels of monk to make a decent cleric/monk PrC build.

Sacred Fist really doesn't need a buff. Anything caster related kind of runs the enviroment play of the server, since they can get the highest stats without items or wands.

Deathgrowl wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 12:29 pm To those of you who say "this has to stop" and are upset about the balance changes, I have a question: Disregard the changes here that you agree or disagree with. Are nerfs, in your opinion, ever warranted? Is the concept of nerfing something acceptable?

Why? Or alternatively, why not?

I think that changes in mechanics are justified only to fix bugs, make unplayable classes playable (making that cleric/thief prc playable would be an excellent change, for instance, as that class is only "collecting dust" in character creation) or to nerf classes that, for some reason or other, are REALLY OP in the sense that everyone is playing them to the detriment of all other classes (in other words, to make the playing field more varied).

With that said, I don't care if some classes, spells or abilities are better or worse, or which ones are op, and wasring time with that is, well, a waste of time. Really, who cares? This is not a competitive Blizzard game, even though some people around here do seem to bring in that mentality.

ARHicks00 wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 7:06 pm

edmaster wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 6:49 pm Now that Cleric's has been given the Nerf bat, perhaps we should look into Buffing up Warpriest, as it currently stands, it is a utterly useless class with a rather expensive feat and Skills tax and in returns it gives very little. I Suggest buffing up their Capstone, removing the speed penalty, giving a bit of a damage boost to Cleric and party, Raising Cater level from 5/10 to 8/10 and removing the skills entry as it is a bit punishing for Clerics.

If you're going to take, why not give in return?

Fist of the Scarce Flame class needs a 10/10 instead of 8/10 considering you need 6 levels of monk to make a decent cleric/monk PrC build.

Sure? Post a more constructive suggestion i guess?

I can break it down for you Growl.

- No item level restrictions.
- We can mule thus an alt or new main can be decked with epic gear
- Up to level 21 most mobs are rather weak, they aren't dynamic enough as an encounter ((see earlier post)
- Epic mobs melt when they meet a group of 4 people, only the bosses are a challenge ((aka heal pots).
- Summons have been buffed in such a way that any mage can solo pretty much everything up to 21 with out a problem.
Some of these summons surpass an average fighter build.
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While Kaeldrins pack is an imbalanced mess , it is no different with classes on the server.
Just look a dragon druid/ hell fire warlock/ anything with strength bard in it and mages in general.

Which brings me to this question: Why combat insight was nerfed?

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I would like to hear an argument from you Growl why the 3/20 rule is something that should exist in D&D on a RP server.