Couldn't agree with enough. Although it goes against what's in the source books, I think all the other deity-specific prcs should open up to other deities with similar spheres.Diamore wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 9:51 pm This looks like a nice addition to prestige classes except for one thing.
Sune.
This class is a fit for more than one deity and there is no reason to limit it to only Sune. We consistently have added prestige classes with an extremely narrow application to characters when it isn't necessary, especially when it comes to deities.
Others deities that should be available include Sharess (Bast), Sharindlar and Hanali Celanil who all share domains of Lust, Pleasure and Romance and closely aligned portfolios. Some lesser overlaps exist in Lliria, Isis, Oghma and Eilistraee who have some overlapping domains and portfolios as well.
I've likely missed some others too, but I think I have illustrated the need for a broader religion requirement at the very least. A Heartwarder dwarf of Sharindlar and an elven one of Hanali Celanil should be just as possible as one of Sune.
Heartwarder PRC
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Re: Heartwarder PRC
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Re: Heartwarder PRC
It is a sunite cleric class.... not sure why we are trying to make this class non sunite non clergy/bard class. I just want this class to be true to the pnp with minor changes to not make it op.TheKai wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 10:42 pmCouldn't agree with enough. Although it goes against what's in the source books, I think all the other deity-specific prcs should open up to other deities with similar spheres.Diamore wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 9:51 pm This looks like a nice addition to prestige classes except for one thing.
Sune.
This class is a fit for more than one deity and there is no reason to limit it to only Sune. We consistently have added prestige classes with an extremely narrow application to characters when it isn't necessary, especially when it comes to deities.
Others deities that should be available include Sharess (Bast), Sharindlar and Hanali Celanil who all share domains of Lust, Pleasure and Romance and closely aligned portfolios. Some lesser overlaps exist in Lliria, Isis, Oghma and Eilistraee who have some overlapping domains and portfolios as well.
I've likely missed some others too, but I think I have illustrated the need for a broader religion requirement at the very least. A Heartwarder dwarf of Sharindlar and an elven one of Hanali Celanil should be just as possible as one of Sune.
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Re: Heartwarder PRC
Because this is a flavor prc not power prcFallingStar wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 6:58 pm Tabletop is too rigid and annoying, we shouldn't just follow blindly. Why keep the same nonsensical requirements when the class is losing a big bonus?
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Re: Heartwarder PRC
The requirements are set to be as close to PnP as possible, Sune's favored weapon in NWN2 is Flail because it doesn't have Whips. BG does, so making you need to be able to use Sune's ACTUAL favored weapon does make sense, I picked that for removal because Dodge and Mobility make sense in the way they restrict the class from being abused in certain builds.FallingStar wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 3:15 pm Sunite clerics and Favored Souls can be CN as well, I believe.
Also... Dodge and Mobility? For a cleric/FS build? I'd vote to keep the weapon proficiency (and cleric builds can just take martial first), and either get rid of the Dodge/Mobility requirements or replace them with something more cleric/FS-friendly. Augment Healing is a decent one, even though IIRC it's on an item. Combat Casting could offer some overlap with the Warpriest requirements (which would in turn satisfy the Martial prerequisite for a cleric build.)
...NwN2 puts Sune's favored weapon as a flail, right?
Anyway, that Dodge/Mobility stuff just makes synergy hard to achieve, unless you're going for some weird Heartwarder Shadow Dancer Whirling Dervish concept.![]()
Now, I've already made a build with this class for Alyssia as is, and it's going to be pretty strong. Not insane, but it's going to let her play her character as she wants, and be relevant in both RP and Combat focused events.
As for making it open to non-sunite classes, that's rediculous. Faiths having their existing classes that are heavily centered on their own themes is a good thing imo. It'd be like opening up Bladesinger to non-elves (Yes, I'm going elf lore nerd, sue me, it's what I know about the most), it just doesn't work with how the lore of the class is designed.Diamore wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 9:51 pmThis looks like a nice addition to prestige classes except for one thing.
Sune.
This class is a fit for more than one deity and there is no reason to limit it to only Sune. We consistently have added prestige classes with an extremely narrow application to characters when it isn't necessary, especially when it comes to deities.
Overall, if the class was implemented as is written in Endelyons post, I think it'd be fine. It wouldn't be great, but that's fine too, because it's a more flavor focused class, rather than a power one, and the high requirements make it far more likely to be used only by people/character it actually fits for, rather than people just taking a 4 level dip on it for some bonus stats and whatnot.
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Re: Heartwarder PRC
Its probably been brought up in this thread at this point, but I'll state it again because I was active when this decision occurred. The deal-breaker on this PrC was the Charisma bonus, of any kind. It was too powerful then and it would probably be too powerful now. Heartwarder is just another EDM build.
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Re: Heartwarder PRC
Except it's a low BAB class in a world of nerfed divine power. A measly 2 charisma increase doesn't even begin to make the prc more attractive than 3 epic feats + medium BAB
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Re: Heartwarder PRC
There's absolutely NO issue with the +2 chasriams, it's barely useful to any possible build, as already stated, EDM builds are killed by the low BaB. Its an extra +1 bonus to Cha casters, but that's barely anything, and most things that could make good use of it in theory, are Melee, which is severly hampered by the low BaB and d4 hit dice
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Re: Heartwarder PRC
Heartwarder is a Medium BAB class, according to Kaedrin's site.The Whistler wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 3:54 am Except it's a low BAB class in a world of nerfed divine power. A measly 2 charisma increase doesn't even begin to make the prc more attractive than 3 epic feats + medium BAB
I'm more referring to why it was never added to BG to begin with. If this is talk of trying to re-invent Heartwarder to make it fit the server, than that's a different matter than what I was responding to.
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Re: Heartwarder PRC
You should probably look at Endelyons post in this thread then, which details the changes to the class for BGTSCC before assuming it'd be a straight Kaedrins portc2k wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 4:13 amHeartwarder is a Medium BAB class, according to Kaedrin's site.The Whistler wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 3:54 am Except it's a low BAB class in a world of nerfed divine power. A measly 2 charisma increase doesn't even begin to make the prc more attractive than 3 epic feats + medium BAB
I'm more referring to why it was never added to BG to begin with. If this is talk of trying to re-invent Heartwarder to make it fit the server, than that's a different matter than what I was responding to.
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Re: Heartwarder PRC
No, it's very sensible. Builders spending time creating, testing and implementing a prestige class for only one god (that is predominantly a human god) is what I would call ridiculous. Especially when you precede that sequence six times (nine if you include seldarine only) for classes that will only be used for a single god out of 125 available options. That's a LOT of characters and builds that lack any kind of support from prestige classes to fully theme or flesh out.
Any increase to the availability of a specialised prestige class should be seen as a good thing in view of this. And definitely not a ridiculous idea.
Agreed , which is why all of the gods I listed have the same portfolios domains and, importantly, playstyles.
No it wouldn't be. It is like asking for Bladesinger to be open to the Dark Seldarine (which it is) or non-Seldarine (which it isn't).
There is only Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Orcs, Gnomes, Halflings, Dwarves, Genasi, Tiefling and Aasimir. Bladesinger (and Deathsinger) is a class that serves 1/11th of the available options in its category. Sune is 1/125th of available options and I am asking for at least 3 additional options be available due to their incredible similarity (one IS Sune's fey aspect, I mean honestly). That only brings it up to around 1/31st of the options which is still not close to how limiting a simple racial requirement is.
The fact that Sune is also a human deity just exaggerates this discrepancy.
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Re: Heartwarder PRC
I'm of the opinion that exclusive prestiege classes are a good thing, always have been, always will be, it makes PCs more unique.Diamore wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 4:41 amNo, it's very sensible. Builders spending time creating, testing and implementing a prestige class for only one god (that is predominantly a human god) is what I would call ridiculous. Especially when you precede that sequence six times (nine if you include seldarine only) for classes that will only be used for a single god out of 125 available options. That's a LOT of characters and builds that lack any kind of support from prestige classes to fully theme or flesh out.
Any increase to the availability of a specialised prestige class should be seen as a good thing in view of this. And definitely not a ridiculous idea.
Domains? Sure. Portfolios? Partly. Playstyles? Absolutely not. Clergy of Hanali Celanil and Sune are extremely different. Heartwarders themes don't fit Hanali as a goddess overall, and characters well versed in each faith wouldn't view things close to the same. I'd have to go into a rant citing multiple books to detail why Heartwarder doesn't make sense for Hanali, but I can say with complete certainty, it doesn't fit.
I don't think Deathsinger should be a thing either. I think it's ridiculous given the premise of what the Bladesong is, and where it comes from. The point I was making is that it's opening up a specific divine related class, to sources that should not have access to it. As I said before, I think exclusive PrCs restricted to their respected faiths/themes are a good thing. If you want something similar to Heartwarder open to more gods, then propose a class that caters to that, don't take an existing class that has a defined place within the setting and start ripping holes in it to muddy the waters.Diamore wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 4:41 amNo it wouldn't be. It is like asking for Bladesinger to be open to the Dark Seldarine (which it is) or non-Seldarine (which it isn't).
There is only Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Orcs, Gnomes, Halflings, Dwarves, Genasi, Tiefling and Aasimir. Bladesinger (and Deathsinger) is a class that serves 1/11th of the available options in its category. Sune is 1/125th of available options and I am asking for at least 3 additional options be available due to their incredible similarity (one IS Sune's fey aspect, I mean honestly). That only brings it up to around 1/31st of the options which is still not close to how limiting a simple racial requirement is.
The fact that Sune is also a human deity just exaggerates this discrepancy.
Edit: Grammar.
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Re: Heartwarder PRC
If every religion had access to their own prestige class I wouldn't be making my existing points. It is neither practical nor possible for our server to do this, even ignoring the fact that the majority of religions do not have their own unique prestige classes. And frankly, opening this class up to three other rarely chosen gods is not going to stop it from feeling or being unique.
I am not arguing that exclusive prestige classes should not exist or are a bad thing. I am arguing that any new prestige classes should cover multiple character backgrounds and not be targeted to a niche group or player. Not because they are bad, but because their existence is inherently unfair for our server and the player's who go without such support.
You do not need to rant to make a point. Just be specific.Hydros wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 5:03 am Domains? Sure. Portfolios? Partly. Playstyles? Absolutely not. Clergy of Hanali Celanil and Sune are extremely different. Heartwarders themes don't fit Hanali as a goddess overall, and characters well versed in each faith wouldn't view things close to the same. I'd have to go into a rant citing multiple books to detail why Heartwarder doesn't make sense for Hanali, but I can say with complete certainty, it doesn't fit.
The resources I have at hand states that their clergy, goals and methods are all but identical. The only source of friction being a rivalry between the pair regarding the innate beauty of humans vs elves. And even that.. is identical as they each have the exact same rivalry.
Okay.Hydros wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 5:03 am The point I was making is that it's opening up a specific divine related class, to sources that should not have access to it... If you want something similar to Heartwarder open to more gods, then propose a class that caters to that, don't take an existing class that has a defined place within the setting and start ripping holes in it to muddy the waters.
Done.Heart WarmerSeveral gods encourage beauty, passion, and love wherever they may be found. Heart Warmers are aesthetes and hedonists who actively seek out pleasure and beauty in all things and who nurture the creation of beautiful objects. Heart Warmers of Sune are called Heartwardens, those of elven blood who pursue this path under Sune's guidance invite the wrath of Hanali Celanil who would claim them and their elven beauty as her own.
Most Heart Warmers are clerics, cleric/bards, favored souls, or cleric/rogues although other class combinations are not unknown. Many are employed as artists, crafters, performers, or instructors.
Requirements:
Alignment: Chaotic Good or Neutral Good
Deity: Sune, Sharess, Sharindlar or Hanali Celanil
Skills: Bluff 3 ranks, Diplomacy 6 ranks
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Exotic (or Bard) Weapon Proficiency
Spellcasting: Ability to cast third level spells
Class Features:
HD: d4
BAB: Low
High Saves: Fort, Will
Weapon and Armor proficiency: None
Skill points: 2 + Int modifier
Class Skills: Bluff, Craft Armor, Craft Weapon, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Heal, Lore (Religion), Perform, Sense Motive, Spellcraft.
Class Abilities:
Level 1: Heart of Passion +1, Spellcasting Progression
Level 2: Lips of Rapture
Level 3: Heart of Passion +2
Level 4: Charisma Increase +1
Level 5: Heart of Passion +3
Level 6: Voice of a Siren
Level 7: Heart of Passion +4
Level 8: Charisma Increase +2
Level 9: Heart of Passion +5
Level 10: Fey Metamorphosis
Spells per Day/Spells Known: At each Heart Warmer level, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which she belonged before adding the prestige class level. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of turning or destroying undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on). If the character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a Heart Warmer, the player must decide to which class to add Heart Warmer levels to for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known.
Heart of Passion: At 1st level, a Heart Warmer displays such passionate belief in whatever she does or says that she can sway the thoughts of the most rigid critic. This ability translates into a +1 bonus on all Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus increases by +1 at levels 3, 5, 7, and 9 (for a total of +5).
Lips of Rapture: At 2nd level, a Heart Warmer's kiss confers a state of bliss upon its recipient, conferring a +3 morale bonus on attacks, weapon damage, checks, and saves. This ability lasts 10 rounds and can be used twice per day. The downside to a Heart Warmer's kiss is that it also dazes the subject for one round once the effect wears off (cannot be resisted, even under the effects of Protection vs Alignment or Mindblank).
Charisma Increase: As the Heart Warmer gains levels in this prestige class, she becomes increasingly more persuasive and attractive. The Heart Warmer gains a +1 charisma bonus at level 4 and again at level 8 (for a total of +2).
Voice of a Siren: At 6th level, a Heart Warmer's voice is so enticing that she weakens the ability of opponents to resist her spells. She gains the Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment) feats for free.
Fey Metamorphosis: At 10th level, a Heart Warmer is so attuned to the forces of natural beauty that she transcends mortal definitions of beauty and becomes touched with a Fey presence. She gains the Fey Power heritage feat for free (even if she does not meet the requirements). She also gains the low-light vision ability and becomes immune to charm and dominate.
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Re: Heartwarder PRC
Yeah, your little rename of the build completely misses the entire premise of my last post. I rather clearly said I had a problem with Deathsinger, because it's basically just a name change, then making a single ability do Damage instead of Slow. The premise of this entire thing doesn't make sense.
Hanali is a Goddess who focuses on Love. Sune on Beauty. There's a very big difference.
Let the Sunites have their own class, it doesn't fit properly for the others. There's no need to go around butchering existing classes just because they're exclusive. Heartwarder, just like Silverstar and Dreadmaster, have their place within the lore.
Let Anrilor have her Heartwarder class, if you want another class to play about with, then suggest it. Sune is a significant diety on the server who over the years has had significant player representation, as have Bane and Selune. It more than makes sense for said dieties to have their own classes added. If there was a sudden influx of Mystran Rangers that stayed long term and whatnot, I'd be entirely fine with them adding in that class too (I can't remember the name for it, but I know it's a thing).
Hanali is a Goddess who focuses on Love. Sune on Beauty. There's a very big difference.
Let the Sunites have their own class, it doesn't fit properly for the others. There's no need to go around butchering existing classes just because they're exclusive. Heartwarder, just like Silverstar and Dreadmaster, have their place within the lore.
Let Anrilor have her Heartwarder class, if you want another class to play about with, then suggest it. Sune is a significant diety on the server who over the years has had significant player representation, as have Bane and Selune. It more than makes sense for said dieties to have their own classes added. If there was a sudden influx of Mystran Rangers that stayed long term and whatnot, I'd be entirely fine with them adding in that class too (I can't remember the name for it, but I know it's a thing).
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Re: Heartwarder PRC
I would rather see this PRC get the no from staff rather then see it open to another faith/build/powergamey thing yall are trying to turn this into.
Dreadlord exists for banites
Silverstar exists for Selunites
Heartwarder should exist for Sunites.
If the staff doesn't want to do another exclusive PRC so be it. I would rather the no then ruin this class RP wise.
Dreadlord exists for banites
Silverstar exists for Selunites
Heartwarder should exist for Sunites.
If the staff doesn't want to do another exclusive PRC so be it. I would rather the no then ruin this class RP wise.
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Re: Heartwarder PRC
I also rewrote sections in bold to open the source up for the class. This class is already being altered for our server and the description and background lore of the class is so generic it could easily WITHOUT CHANGE be used for the listed religions.
From a lore standpoint, from their actions, motivations, goals and tendencies they appear and act exactly the same. Hanali goes on to be the fey aspect of Sune because of their near identical portfolios and behaiours.
It does fit properly as I've already pointed out without any counter points.
The implied definition of butchering here is "allowing three other closely aligned gods with overlapping beliefs and portfolios to access the class with no other changes".
No. Proposing more alternative single religion classes just continues the problem and bogs down decision making. Allowing a class to service several related gods makes more sense for implementation, testing and fairness to different characters and players.
The only suggestion I have made is to allow for three other closely related religions to access the proposed prestige class. I'm not certain what the powergamey comment is in regards to. Realistically this class could service multiple other gods as I mentioned originally, why does it need to be unique to only one?Anrilor wrote: I would rather see this PRC get the no from staff rather then see it open to another faith/build/powergamey thing yall are trying to turn this into.
Ms Mackarty: Humble and unassuming wanderer
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Mora Eldris: Talkative.
Sera Lowe: Nervous ex-commoner
Rachel Evermonte: Painfully serious knight