Reserve Feat "trick" for Blade/Deathsinger

[Ewe]

I don't know I think anything by the rules is fair game, why else wouldn't they make BM and BS not allowed to be taken together like other PRC restrictions?

As far I know, we have no rules against being a Blackguard and actively helping paladins. Nor the opposite. Despite lore forbidding such.

I heard the stories of the blackguard who infiltrated orh and became the leader. So I think there's valid RP for that, yes.

[K'yon Oblodra]

Hoihe you keep mixing RP reasons with building, generally you can build strong characters that are still decent enough to make sense to RP but in most cases if you want to powerbuild the RP point of view on the character is going to suffer.

If characters were balanced around how they should be played lore wise it would be impossible to balance for the cases where people would build to build the most powerful.

And yay hooray for UMD people can just buff themselves stronger and better than a wizard OMGS how unfair is that!?

Oh wait is there easy dispelling on those effects.... Wait.... Wait... Wait yup there is.
The build suggested here with the BM levels for the evil power build that doesn't make sense, with the oh so shiny armor, just if it's light so it would have to be mithril if you wanted it to be shiny, bladesinger would allow for CL30 and therefor would be less dispellable.

I don't know Hoihe, if you want to argue for the class being changed for RP reasons, then say so. But stating that it's weak cause it's worse when you play it according to your RP guidelines is just silly as was pointed out by the real chad and others.

I completely agree that the class does not play like the cool elven chick in Lord of the rings, I agree that the strange ability that slows everyone including you is pretty damn crappy.

Would giving the BS this ability to utilise reserve feats more often make the class stronger? Yes!

Would it make it feel more like the elven chick in Lord of the rings? Hell no, it would feel like a crappy version of the cool elven chick, cause she did not just do that... Hey, blade be enchanted with this weird spell so I can hit harder trick... She actually shaped the river or something if I recall correctly...

Now why don't we give that ability to the BS? Cause its a game and not a fantasy movie where our nerdiest dreams come true...
We already try, to allow ourselves a lot but there are game limitations and there is imagination we use to make up for it.... Use yours!!!


Sorry for the rant but everything that could have been said on the matter has been said, twice, three times maybe more.

And now I don't want this to end with bad blood so I'll send you a heart <3 cause you're passionate and that's good. And another cause I really ranted quite hard I feel... Sorry <3

[Max Hatchet]

My impression is also that Bladesinger is quite underwhelming

[Steve]

My impression is also that Bladesinger is quite underwhelming

Well, by Valefort (Dev who made Bladesinger) and Chad (QC guinea pig ), Bladesinger was a “flavor addition” to the general Gish building on BGTSCC, and well, tough cookies Powerbuilders!!!

viewtopic.php?f=446&t=57864

[Hammer_Song]

Been following this and just wanted to chime in. From what I had seen before I semi-retired, bladesinger builds were awesome and able to solo vast amounts of the server without getting damaged, let alone dying. I've put a build together quickly to demonstrate. The build hasn't been min/max'd, so you could get much more out of it potentially. It is a lowly Wiz10/BS10/EK10.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?317435

Stats are on the build website, but basically this build will hit 41 AB with 6 APR, 30.5 damage per hit, 53 AC without combat expertise, dodge, or extra 1-weapon bonuses taken into account, DC's of 24 + spell level, CL 29 and a lot of spells due to high intelligence (8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6) without using any spell slot items. The build also gets an epic spell feat, I'd possibly go with Greater Ruin so I could cast it onto my weapon before hard fights - but the choice is ultimately the builders.

Without being argumentative, I can't honestly see how a build like this, with a wizards spellbook at it's disposal, could ever be considered to be underpowered, or useful purely for RP. The RP is great, but these guys tank like bosses and can actually burst damage or damage over time via clouds. Their huge amount of spells would make them able to buff summons also. There's many ways to play these builds.

[chad878262]

Chad (QC guinea pig )

I never got such a fancy title under my name...

Stats are on the build website, but basically this build will hit 41 AB with 6 APR, 30.5 damage per hit, 53 AC without combat expertise, dodge, or extra 1-weapon bonuses taken into account, DC's of 24 + spell level, CL 29 and a lot of spells due to high intelligence (8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6) without using any spell slot items. The build also gets an epic spell feat, I'd possibly go with Greater Ruin so I could cast it onto my weapon before hard fights - but the choice is ultimately the builders.

Still got it bro...that is essentially the 'yard stick' build for a bladesinger. Anything you change from that is essentially going to likely make you less powerful, but as anyone can (or should be able to) see, you have a lot of room to make yourself 'less powerful' and still be more than capable of solo play. I played a rapier based W5/SB5/BS10/EK10 to get more damage per hit at the expense of CL. However, I wore epic gear so I was less reliant on buffs and focused utilizing spells for SOC and clouds. overall it is less powerful because you do more damage per hit, but less DC and less cloud damage, plus less spells. Doesn't mean the build is not valid, just that it is not the 'best' bladesinger build and that is fine. If you go deathsinger you can get a little more mileage by going W6/BM4 instead of W10 in the build, but even there you have to give up something (probably one weapon feat). Anyway, nicely done in terms of showing quickly why bladesinger is far from a weak or underwhelming PRC to build with. Kudos.

Edit to add: In relation to the conversation on DC's, consider that in Hammer's build he reaches 24 + Spell level DCs... That is to say 33 on a level 9 spell. Should you wish to do so, you could drop deadly defense and luck of hero's and add in spell focus/greater spell focus, then take epic spell focus in epic levels to get a DC of 36 which as I stated on page one is only a few points off from a dedicated DC caster (36 vs. ~40 target for a DC caster). So a Necromancy based Deathsinger could absolutely have FoD on their weapon with song of celerity to have a DC 34 save or die on the first hit or use Wail of the banshee for a DC36 save or die in an AoE. It is a bit of a one trick pony to build a Bladesinger or Deathsinger that way, but it would be quite effective for sure. In the end I found DC 24+ spell level to be more than enough with clouds. I especially enjoyed using Cloudkill since the constant drain on CON against enemies caused them to fail more saving throws the longer they were in the cloud. good times.

[qwertyh88]

Got Me curious with trying to create a non Bladesinger Gish build

-Seems to me that a Bladesinger Gish build (6 W/4BM/10EK/10BS) built right is stronger than a 6W/4BM/10EK/10EK build.

Is this right?
http://nwn2db.com/build/?320950

The main issue is having to take still spell & automatic still spell 0 -9 which eats up a lot of the feats.

[chad878262]

Is this right?
http://nwn2db.com/build/?320950

Not how I would build a DragonSlayer...

- You gave yourself additional +3 STR from buffs... Bull's STR only gives +2. you may be thinking of Cleric Divine Power which would give +6 STR (and thus +3 AB/Damage). So your final AB is 42

- what is the point of Empower Spell in epics? Dragon Slayer is mostly buff and bash, MAYBE a cloud here or there. with low INT your DCs are pretty bad so outside of a couple outliers like throwing Bladeweave on your weapon you won't use a whole lot of empowered spells... My guess is you were maybe taking this for Bulls STR (which is why you thought you would get +3 instead of +2) but note that Empower doesn't work on Bulls in NWN2 like it did in NWN1. IMO you'd be better off grabbing an epic spell like epic gate or epic dragon knight.

- Also not sure why you went epic call lightning storm as that is kinda a waste... your DCs are not very good so better off with epic summons or something that will be strong even on a failed save.

- Essentially you have the basic right of things. Dragon Slayer, in general will have BETTER Attack Bonus, but a little LESS damage over a Bladesinger. Benefit of Bladesinger is higher INT for a little better DCs making their clouds more useful. While Dragonslayer has more feats available to them, they are also essentially required to spend a pre-epic and three epic feats to get the spell casting that BS gets for free (in light armor). While DS can wear heavy armor and use a tower shield, the +5 INT to AC Bladesinger can get nullifies this benefit (Tower Shield = +4 AC and MFP vs. MCM = +1 AC). So really it is about if you want to have better AB or better damage (both from weapon and higher DC clouds). AC will be roughly the same, they just get there in different manners.

- While Blood Magus does get you to CL30, CL29 isn't that big a deal and since you are going sword and board there is a lot of benefit by getting Shield Bash, Knockdown, Shield Charge and Shield Slam. However, this requires you to drop Toughness, Steadfast, Blindfight and either Able Learner, Extend Spell or an epic feat so maybe just Knockdown and IKD...


Obviously all just my opinion. In general spells make any gish very tough to kill so long as the player understands how to utilize the spell book.

[qwertyh88]

Thanks for the quick reply Chad.

I went Empowered Spell mainly because I wanted Empowered IGMS for the boss fights. (No DC checks)
Empowered cloud spell should have no problems against non-boss mobs.

I randomly put Epic Lightning Storm as a place holder for some Epic Spell -- Maybe Epic Greater Ruin or Epic Gate or something else would be better there.

I put +6 Str because of Iron Body spell. (Not that I would imagine myself using it much if any but it's there for the +6 Str)

Regarding the whole shield bash line of feats, I am not sure I would sacrifice that much just to have bashing/knocking down mobs when those abilities don't play much important roles against Epic Bosses + plus my str aren't in the high 30s.

[chad878262]

Regarding the whole shield bash line of feats, I am not sure I would sacrifice that much just to have bashing/knocking down mobs when those abilities don't play much important roles against Epic Bosses + plus my str aren't in the high 30s.

Even with 28 STR your DC on Shield Slam would be 10 + 15 (1/2 CL) + 9 = 34 against opponent Fortitude Save... Not bad considering you can activate Shield Slam once every 3 rounds! It is important to note this difference vs. something like Knockdown/IKD as it is a different calculation (DC Fort save vs. opposed STR check.

In any case, I certainly agree it is a big investment, I just think Steadfast is kinda a waste when the right spells can in general make you immune to anything when properly prepared (i.e. mantle). As I said, not a big deal either way... Gish with Caster Level of ~27+ is pretty easy to keep upright in PvE no matter how you build it.

[qwertyh88]

Agreed Chad-- a properly prepared Gish can go the distance --

But back to why I even posted this in the 1st place,

It just seem to me that a well built Bladesinger is stronger than a DS.

18 str Bladesinger + EPIC Prowess + WF is one less AB shy of a 28 STR DS with TS.

But has 1 more AC, not even counting Combat Expertise. And AC is better than AB yes?!

More damage with two handed wielding than sword & board

The only downside is that you are stuck with a Longsword while DS has some flexibility with weapon type.

[chad878262]

I don't recall the thread, but MrM3ntalist at one point posted a very good breakdown of the differences and the output (if I recall correctly) was that a DragonSlayer gish and a Bladesinger gish were VERY close with regard to overall power. They are both quite solid. I agree BS is *slightly* better overall thanks to stacking INT synergy (more spells, better DC while getting AC and damage from INT), but Bladesinger is always going to have a bit of a low attack bonus while DragonSlayer doesn't tend to have that issue. ~38 AB vs. ~43 AB is a pretty significant difference when you don't have expose weakness and/or HiPS.