Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

The only kind of challenge that remains challenging, is when you do not or cannot know the skill/strength of your opponent.

No matter how well an Area is designed, it will be static, and eventually everyone learns (or is just shown) how to win over the challenge. And then the challenge is gone.

NWN2 and BGTSCC have finite resources, maximums and caps. Without a reliable randomness quotient in the spawns, their placement, their type, their CR, their number, any player, powerbuild maker or Group, will soon enough “game” the challenge.

And I’ll add this: what is a challenge, really, if you have nothing to lose? Level 30s should be deleveled to 29 when they die in this game, since otherwise it’s like a immortal joke to actually see any risk in the challenge.

TBH, this is why I've generally preferred low-level servers like Legacy: Dark Age of Britain. My experience has been that it's much easier to build a fair challenge around a Level 8-15 cap than it is around Epics (heck, many of our PCs out-level major canon FR players. Even Drizzt was only about Level 16 in 3.5).

Steve wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:33 pm The only kind of challenge that remains challenging, is when you do not or cannot know the skill/strength of your opponent.

No matter how well an Area is designed, it will be static, and eventually everyone learns (or is just shown) how to win over the challenge. And then the challenge is gone.

Its been a while since I have seen the scripts, but it maybe possible to have dungeons change their encounter tables every reset.

One thing I’ve noticed, in the temple in the ruins of Oghrann, there is a ‘boss’ room with the high priestess in it. She’s pretty powerful so the standard tactic to beat her is invis, haste, run in and beat her down before she can start getting spells off.

There are also random spawns in that room.

Occasionally there will be a soothsayer or necromancer with her who can see through invisibility and start attacking as you’re charging her.

The other day there was two soothsayers, two necromancers, a group of warrior lords and couple a reavers (archers) and a bone spider. Was the creme de la creme of random spawns.

Also I notice in the Duregar compound there are trigger points that spawn encounters, like 4 duregar at a time, but you never know what you're going to get. Any single one can be a weapon master, axe thrower, or caster, so you can get all of one type or any combination of the three. By 30 it doesn't make much difference anyway, but the scripting is there.

Maybe there is a way to spawn several random but powerful allies for boss encounters in some kind of Uber epic zone?

I wouldn’t recommend it in areas already in the game since people do need epic areas to level epic characters and there are not enough of them as is, but I completely agree that without an element of randomness to each encounter they will eventually be easy enough to beat and we’re back to square 1.

Steve wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:33 pm And I’ll add this: what is a challenge, really, if you have nothing to lose? Level 30s should be deleveled to 29 when they die in this game, since otherwise it’s like a immortal joke to actually see any risk in the challenge.

This gives me an idea but I’ll start a new thread instead of further hijacking Chad’s, which is a great read.

So I'm almost to level 21 (need about 5K) and just wanted to post some updates, most are probably sounding like a broken record.

- The way XP works, along with the individual loot containers really makes Partying up so much more rewarding than solo. In addition to being able to go to higher CR areas (which gives you slightly better chances at scoring some nice loot), you gain RP XP, are able to down mobs more quickly, have less risk of losing XP to being fugued and if you form relationships with those players/characters there is at least some chance IC they will pass on a piece of good loot they can't use over to your character. Grouping is not always an option, but for me it is still far and away preferable to solo. Faster XP, less risk and MORE FUN!

- An odd occurrence, but I have had two scenarios where I was with one other person and they died. Both times I planned to raise them, but they respawned before I finished killing the mobs we were facing. Sent tells with no response, but is this an issue of lack of patience? Being upset or embarrassed they got fugued? I don't know the answer and there are likely as many answers as players since all are different, but just an odd thing to do when you have a party member with you.

- I have been to every area up to CR 20 except for Yuan-Ti Hills (UMD wards and dispel spam make me not really want to try at level 20 on a low will save/mediocre Fortitude and Reflex PC), Ulcaster (haven't been able to get in, probably need a group), and Durlags (want protection from petrification, haven't bothered to get it). Up to this point, even in Nashkel Mines Feint is viable (modified bluff is 39, 41 w/ heroism). While my PC does have stealth, his stealth is relatively low what with mithril chainmail and a tower shield so HiPS is mostly a defensive measure (and likely only to work to stop attacks so I can swig healing or dodge a dispel). Obviously this may still change as I get in to epics, but I even went to Reaching Woods (CR23) and Feint was working there as well at least sometimes. Thus far I am of the opinion that Feint is viable, but you can't expect to be a top end sneak AND a Feinter. Nothing wrong with this IMO, but will report as I begin moving to epics in the coming weeks/months.

- Nashkel Mines is still one of my favorite dungeons to explore with an appropriate level PC. Pretty good number of chests, difficult, but manageable enemies, dispels are annoying, but they should be. Headed there for the first time this weekend and other than one time on the first level where I walked in to the chest room which had 3 of the Rune Mages (or whatever the ones that throw dispels and elemental spells at you), a guard dog, and a dwarven defender... Needless to say that was a very difficult encounter that included me running, hiding, invisibility, more buffing (and more dispeling ) and a victory that was quite enjoyable. These mines are very tough for a sneak attack damage based character with UMD and low saves due to the various casters, the rock beasts (Oh how awful those are for CR appropriate characters that don't have epic precision yet) and also have some pretty potent traps for non-rogues. If a couple of the chests, such as the DC36 one and maybe one or two others were not bashable Nashkel Mines might be the most likely current high CR dungeon that encourages having a party. I didn't make it to the fight with the Fire Demon as I had to log off to do family stuff, but wasn't planning to even attempt the Pit Fiend anyway so no big deal there. Was a fun romp with some difficult, fun challenges. Nice to finally have a long CR appropriate dungeon to go in again. Was really missing that from level 12-19.

- Related to the above, I really hope area builders are chomping at the bit for the server split to give us lots of new area's to explore... I know we don't have many active one's right now (maybe only 1?), but perhaps if/when the server split occurs we'll have others come back or join the team with an interest in what they can do to add to the lore, challenge and interest in various regions that we have.

- Just a funny note that I keep forgetting that the fear affect from wild animals is not protected against by Protection from Evil (which is of course accurate since it is not a magical effect, nor is it coming from an evil creature, but still I always forget). I have started RP'ing my character as having an odd fear of Bears and Tigers and such because his stupidly low Will save means that basically any time a wild animal with the fear ability spawns he is at some point going to make a run for it, usually causing a difficult battle if he is able to recover from the fear without getting killed. Today in the Troll claws a Bear feared me and chased me in to a group of a Fell Troll and 3 other trolls. I was luckily able to recover (that 2K XP hit would have sucked), but the battle did cost me a healing pot and a couple other of my "Oh @#$!" items that I keep for such occasions when a trip to the fugue seems likely. Anyway, fun little stuff like this is something I enjoy integrating to the RP on my characters. Of course if I actually remembered this weakness I could use Shield Charge, Blinding Strike, Shield Slam, HiPS/Ghost Step as ways to stun/kill such enemies quickly and thus never worry about them activating their roar or whatever it is that causes the fear, but oh well, I kind of like when it happens as it tells a story of it's own and allows the environment to help give my character a little quirk he wouldn't otherwise have.

- Thank you to Endelyon as Blinding Strike and Shield Charge bug is no longer an issue. So nice to have that bug fixed as it really did mean that in general I had to pick one or the other to use in a given area. Has vastly improved a fairly important aspect of my disabler/sneak attacker concept.

- Speaking of the above, I definitely don't think it is accurate for anyone to say that 'Thug-type' or 'sword and board' rogue's aren't viable. Mine is actually stronger than I expected up to level 20. In addition, all things being equal I believe he'd be stronger WITHOUT Assassin in the build. Ghost Step would give a limited number of uses per day to help avoid dispels or get out of situations. Something like R13/F4/GFK10/BG3 would probably be a better overall mix to be honest, would reach BAB26 for a 6th attack and (more importantly) not be nearly so reliant on utilizing potions of heroism (though they are so cheap I don't really mind much). Blackguard would add a lot here as well since the effective +2 DC to blinding strike and shield slam would be huge since I utilize those way more than I ever use HiPS. Anyway, there are loads of other PRCs that can help with building a sword and board style (non-HiPS focused) sneak attack character, most notably of course would be Bodyguard 3 and Wilderness Stalker, but whirling dervish would be a good pick as well.

Ok, that is all for now. Happy gaming everyone, hope you all have a great week!

It's been a while since I posted, but having reached epic plus the fact that loosening restrictions have resulted in my son having a lot of baseball practices/games/tournaments going on mean I have also not been in game as much. That said I do have a few thoughts to add so here goes.

Current level: 22 (R7/F4/A8/GFK3)
Equipment: Katana +4, Tower Shield +4, Mithril Chainmail, Belt of Growth, Finch's Fine Chapeau, Greater Amulet of the Fence, Greater Cloak of the Fence, Bracers +3 Armor, +10 HP, Dodge Boots +4, Ring +4 Deflection, Ring +4 Fortitude/+2 Universal/Toughness/+10 HP.
Buffs: PfE (greater helm of opposite alignment), IMA, Spiderskin, Deathward (wands), Neutralize Poison (amulet), Keen (Whetstone), Heroism (potions)

Feedback:
- Once I reached ~18 I could start venturing to the Trollclaws and by 21 I could do all of the area's except the bosses in the Old Mine solo. The Old Mine is pretty brutal with the bosses which is really cool. The weird door thing where you have to learn the 'trick' to get to various areas through them is a cool concept, but the doors are kind of buggy so that when in a party even if everyone knows said trick it can become super annoying waiting for everything to work out just right for the party to get through and be in the same area. It'd be nice if party play were more supported by having the doors work better or moving party through when one member gets through or something. Cool area, just could use some fixes.

- At 21 I can do all of Nashkel Mines, though I have not yet made an attempt to take on the Pit Fiend at the end. Having a relatively deep dungeon to dive in to and explore is a great boon, even though as a build heavily based around damage from sneak attacks, but not having epic precision until 25 I pretty much do my best to circumvent the Rock Beasts without fighting them. They aren't dangerous, they are just super annoying and take FOREVER to kill. Other than that though, I find it a really good challenge as having ~4+ melee mobs on you at once can really make for a potentially deadly result and the fact that their are so many types of enemies (including 3 different kinds of spell casters) make for a fairly unique experience every time you go. I have gone in and not faced a single dispel, as well as getting hit with dispels half a dozen times (expensive for one that uses so many wards when solo). On average I usually see mobs with dispel 2-3 times when going from the exterior portion all the way to the bottom, how good I am at seeing dispel casting mobs before they see me is generally the determining factor on how much it 'costs' me in terms of reapplying wards.

- Nashkel Mine just reasserts the need on the server for more deep, multi-level dungeons. It is simply more fun (for me) to constantly be deciding if I continue going deeper or make my way back, cutting the exploration short due to getting low on healing supplies or the like. Obviously not much to be done until server split, but I truly hope when it does get to a point where we can execute on it that there is plenty of excitement to add new dungeons/caves/towers/keeps to explore especially for CR's 11-27 or so.

- In epics, leveling advancement is noticeably better with a party. On average going from 20 to 21 and 21 to 22 I would say when solo I gain on average about ~1-2,000 XP per hour or so, with it usually being much closer to 1K than 2. However, if I have 2 or 3 party members with me, the number is 3x that at around 3-4K, depending on the area and the type of group I'm with (running to grind/loot vs. adventuring which it should be clear is the one I prefer). I think this is perfectly fine and as I have said to me it is not an issue to have slower leveling in epics, the only thing that I think is important is to provide more variety in area's to go when you reach these levels.

- The higher in levels you go, the more important saving throws become (hence why I spent the 195K to get the waterdavian ring or whatever it's called). Immunities are great and all, but failing your fortitude save when you're at 2/3 health sucks when that disintegration spell hits you...

As I said up front, play times have been a bit less and leveling is slower so not sure when I will have more additional content to discuss. Definitely enjoying the mechanics of my current character, but the fact that my play times usually mean I am solo along with the lack of new interesting places to go explore makes me strongly consider spending my time on a new level 1 character going through the excellent content we have for levels 1-11.

Hope everyone else is having fun (including you know, going outside and enjoying the Summer!) Cheers,

Hello fellow D&D nerds, like it or not, time for some more analysis from me... Enjoy (or roll your eyes, your choice!)

Still level 22, nothing really new on the inventory front and I really only want to discuss one thing... weekly quests.

Now for those who've been around for over 2 years, you probably already know that I have what is probably an unhealthy level of dislike for the weekly quests on BG. I see them as a 'tax' on players time in order to advance levels. However, especially once you get to epics, or even a little before, the pull to do them in order to advance becomes very strong. Today I was shooting tells to Izzul about maybe going and exploring someplace, but the issue was he doesn't have any characters that are not level 30 (since he levels 1-30 in like 10 minutes I'm not sure why he didn't just roll up a character and get to level 22 real quick...j/k Izzul.) Now, at level 22 I can't adventure with a level 30 without taking that wonderful XP penalty so Izzul recommended I just bite the bullet and do a quest run. Thus I spent about 2 1/2 hours getting through most of the weekly surface quest run. I still need to do the Cloakwood Mines, the Sharpteeth Mushrooms and Orcs, return quests to BG and I guess Soubar, but I think I'll get enough to hit 23 by then and thus will be allowed to adventure with 30's sans XP penalty. Plus I'll get Expose Weakness so there's that boon...

Quests are just as awful for me as they were every time since maybe the 2nd or 3rd time doing them. There is no RP to it, there is no adventure or exploration, sure there is a bit of gold and opening some chests or lootable containers here and there, but that is it. At 22 none of the weekly quests are a challenge, they are as I said, a time tax to gain XP. So why is it that people do them? The easy answer is because it's the fastest way to level in epics, but there is more to it IMO and I just can't figure out what it is. Every time I have brought up alternatives (or anyone else has) in the past, many players will post about the fact that their specific build cannot level by going to CR appropriate areas. Others will indicate they prefer it because they can do it while they're catching up on whatever show on Netflix etc. Whatever the reason, there is no possible roleplay benefit to it so it adds nothing to the server.

I'd love to hear thoughts on this, maybe someone can finally make me understand a valid reason to actually PREFER spending 4 hours of your play time each week running the same repetitive quests... In my opinion there has simply got to be a better mechanic. Heck, make the quests one time and just increase the RP XP, Fishing XP, Open Lock XP, and Monster XP by whatever is necessary to compensate and come to the same total XP average or, if you want to consider folks that don't have a lot of playtime provide an XP pool each week that grants up to 15K as you play (I have suggested this in the past and it was even mostly completed, but never went in. It isn't the most popular idea). I'd love to hear ideas for other ways the whole quest running thing can be replaced or at least supplemented in order to get players roleplaying together (campfire, masquerade ball, or adventure, doesn't matter) rather than speed running quests for their weekly fix.

I know this probably comes off as rather negative, but I simply don't want to spend my limited playtime doing repeatable quests that make zero IC sense. I have always completely avoided it for over 3 years on the surface (underdark is a bit less problematic), but sense there are usually only ~15-20 people online when I play and one of the few that groups up with me on a regular basis advised I need just that one level so we can adventure without me getting an XP penalty I figured might as well suck it up and get it done, since otherwise it'll be another week or 2 of going solo until I would get to 23.

Cheers!

Why not just adventure and NOT worry about XP at all? That would shove your “problem.”

Steve wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:11 am Why not just adventure and NOT worry about XP at all? That would shove your “problem.”

Which is mostly what I have been doing, but progression is a part of the game and as I said, when there are 15 people online the options for getting in to a group are somewhat limited.

True, everyone enjoys progression. No argument there. It just depends on the individual as to what the “acceptable” rate of said progression.

If there are only 15 players online and you’re looking for group RP/adventure, sure, it’s a challenge to find success. If you refuse or just dislike solo adventuring, then yeah, SOL and what can one do?!?

But there is always the ability to visit an Area that is 5-6 CRs lower than what your build can handle in a group, and just “adventure” there. Or, there is fishing!

XP shouldn’t be given out unless one has earned it. BGTSCC has direct and indirect ways to acquire Experience, but XP gain should never become passive (imho).

As for Quests, they do get old as dirt. But it is a reliable payout (which is nice if you need progression with little risk). I’d be all for setting quests to Level specific ranges, and then power-bumping the output for a one time payout. It wouldn’t stop a PC from grinding an Area before or after, but it would reduce the IC interactions of “..,gonna find that stupid key for those small brained halflings for the hundredth time!!”

I think the bonus XP pool isn't a bad idea. Presumably it would still require the player to do something in order to gradually deplete the pool, right? I imagine it would just add a percentile boost to incoming XP while there's XP left in the bonus pool, and then periodically reset to full capacity - daily, weekly, or possibly even monthly, depending on the size of the pool.

If the bonus pool existed on a per-character basis, I think it would also narrow the gap between engaging and less engaging characters on a player's account, making it easier to stick to a concept instead of dropping it the moment it stops being involved in anything interesting. (Leave it to the altoholic to look for opportunities like that... )

How about xp given for IG book reading?

I know not how hard it would be to implement mechanically, and implement in a way that actually encourages people to read and not just right click examine and close, but it might be much more rp-productive, and lore enhancing, to have characters gain xp by reading books on the setting's lore, get the average player much more acquainted with it, something that\:

1 - got a higher mental involvement rate than quest grinding.
2 - Is less repetitive.
3 - hopefully make ppl more familiar with the lore and atmosphere.
4 - scholar character friendly.

Maybe a solution would be to have level based bounty quests.

“The Flaming Fist wants you, level 8 adventurer, to clear the hilltop runes by killing 20 kobolds”

... then gnolls at 12, goblins at 14...

Or whatever is level appropriate.

Might be interesting if working for one faction shuts down another. Radiant Heart wants X, Zhenterim wants Y. Flaming Fist wants X, Thieves Guild wants Y...

There is already a quest like that in the UD where you either help a drider steal something from the temple of Lolth or help the temple recover a stolen idol from said drider.

Might be some RP value in having players choose sides if they plan to quest together. Just make the quests work on a level basis instead of time basis.

I both like and dislike the quests.

On the one hand they offer an easy way for newer players to get started and gain a bit of XP to out level the content they face for a bit. It is also doubly good for the newer players, who don't necessarily know where to go, or how to build a proper character. Thirdly they also offer the option for a seasoned adventurer to help a fresh adventurer.

On the other hand they do become repetitive, and oftentimes boring to do. For the time it takes to do them (about 2 hours when efficient), it is the best XP per hour for any level from 1 to 30, which in itself is also sad.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:58 am Maybe a solution would be to have level based bounty quests.

“The Flaming Fist wants you, level 8 adventurer, to clear the hilltop runes by killing 20 kobolds”

... then gnolls at 12, goblins at 14...

Or whatever is level appropriate.

Might be interesting if working for one faction shuts down another. Radiant Heart wants X, Zhenterim wants Y. Flaming Fist wants X, Thieves Guild wants Y...

There is already a quest like that in the UD where you either help a drider steal something from the temple of Lolth or help the temple recover a stolen idol from said drider.

Might be some RP value in having players choose sides if they plan to quest together. Just make the quests work on a level basis instead of time basis.

Similar to what I have proposed in a different thread is to have a Monster Hunter Guild. A place where job postings are made for various dangerous creatures, on a weekly cycle. Let's say that this Guild only becomes available upon reaching level 20, while all other quests become unavailabe. Once per week a random high-end monster is chosen. Killing it awards X amount of experience and gold, but it has to be killed within that week. One week it's a Balor. The next a Black Dragon. The week after it might be the lich Chaos. And so on. Rewards are based on the difficulty of the monster.

For anyone, who have watched Critical Role Season 1, this is essentially a Forgotten Realms version of the Slayer's Take monster hunting guild.

Can even put the reward quite high, but have it on a monthly timer instead. 10k bonus XP and 15k bonus gold for killing the Balor once per month, rather than doing the repetitive quests. Next month it's 20k bonus XP and 30k bonus gold for killing the White Dragon. Still not as much as doing the quests four times in the same timespan, but definitely less boring.