So, ultimately, I get what you're trying to say. You're trying to say that what one person may consider flirting, you might have considered just being friendly. That can absolutely happen in any sort of interpersonal relationship. The best part of these misconceptions? They can be cleared up *really* easily with simple communication.JustAnotherGuy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:53 pm After stepping away from the thread for a couple hours, going on a short drive, and chatting with some people in discord, I decided to revisit this thread. Hopefully what I have to say will be listened to.
Before I begin, I want to point out that this:is unwelcome, and antithetical to a discussion. Yes, I am a male. Yes, males are much less likely to encounter harassment and assault, sexual or otherwise. But it happens, and no one here knows me or my story. And likely you never will. For now, suffice it to say that yes, I do have a dog in this fight. Dismissing someone's opinion because of their sex/gender is wrong.I think this is because harassment issue (both IRL and the one described in the thread) is something that female players, sadly, encounter. Being a male player, your chances to find yourself in the same situation are almost non-existant. This is something that is not important for you, but important for them.
Now, back to the subject matter.
I absolutely agree that harassment is an issue. I absolutely agree that if someone is uncomfortable with something, they should speak up. And I absolutely agree that if someone speaks up and then the behavior continues, it is harassment. And I don't want to belittle anyone's experiences that lead to them having the comfort zones that they have, like my experiences have been in the above quote.
However, for me and my wife, we have a scale when it comes to comfort level. We realize that we cannot control everyone's actions, and that some things will make for a better story, even if it's not how we want it to work out. We have soft lines, and we have hard lines. If something crosses a hard line, it's an instant report. I had to do this just this past week. But some behaviors, we have to take a look and say "I don't like this. But does it cross a line I'm unwilling to let be crossed?"
Then, we have to decide what to do about the offending party. "They crossed this line. Do we report it, or just stay away from them?" Essentially. I personally try not to report anything I can either live with, or avoid, unless it crosses a hard line. I have a couple toons that even if I'm in deep RP, if they show up, I leave the area. If the behavior is totally OOC, like sending /t and such, obviously that can't be avoided, and must be reported.
The issue with flirting, is we have such a large gray area, that is subjective on both sides. Let me be clear. Harassment isn't subjective, but flirting is. A wink may or may not be flirting. A compliment may or may not be flirting. Even a grin or smirk may or may not be flirting. So, if we have a behavior that one takes as flirting, but the other person does not, we have created an issue. "I told him OOC to stop flirting, but he did it anyway", whereas, from the player's perspective there was no flirting. Rather than get rid of harassment, we have then created an atmosphere of hostility. And that is what I'm trying to avoid here.
No one wants to have to think, "Is it ok if I do this action?" It should be clear what is ok and what is not. And that is the issue I have with flirting. Especially knowing myself, when I (both IC/IRL) have been told I was flirting when it was not my intent at all. I was on a college trip (Even though I was in my 30s) and my roommate was surprised to see me come to my room one night. He literally told me, "I thought you were going to be sleeping with x tonight". Here I was, a married man with three kids, just being nice to a woman, and evidently my whole class on my trip thought I was flirting with this girl who was ten years younger than I was. On top of that, she thought I was going to spend the night with her. When I absolutely did not intend to send those signals.
So yes. Flirting is a volatile subject for me when people try to make it an objective line. Because what one person believes is flirting may not be intended. So, even if told OOCly, "Don't flirt with my toon, it makes me uncomfortable", we are now opening the doors to many "he said, she said" moments if we try to report it as harassment, rather than just avoiding the offender, assuming that the behavior continues purely IC.
Hopefully my point now is a lot clearer, and people will read the whole thing.
Let's pose a hypothetical - you're in the Eastern Farmlands, having a conversation with Lady A. You're under the impression things are going fine - you've asked her about her recent goblin slaying exploits, and praised her for her bravery to go where most adventurers would avoid. Your character is impressed with them, and wants to be friends with the brave Lady A! Great, this all seems wonderful on your end.
On Lady A's end, she has been made to feel a little uncomfortable with the tone of the RP - thinking that maybe your character, Tim the Chef, is trying to get into her pants. Lady A is married, and is not looking for suitors ICly, and OOCly she is not interested in romance RP on the server, or perhaps even with just Tim the Chef in general. So, Lady A sends you a tell oocly.
"Hey, just so you know, I'm not really comfortable with flirting with my character, she is married ICly and I am not interested in romance RP."
Now, here's where your reply matters. You hadn't meant to be flirty at all! Tim the Chef was just amazed that an adventurer was going out into the wilds to make the world just a little bit safer. The last thing you want is Lady A's player thinking you were being a creep.
"Oh, sorry, I wasn't meaning to come across that way - Tim is just very impressed with A's exploits, and wanted to thank her for helping Baldur's Gate!"
More than likely, your simple, one sentence explanation will be more than sufficient for the average person.
Now, what if it isn't enough? What if they were still uncomfortable with the RP, and wanted to walk away?
Well, that's the thing. They're allowed to do that. The player - you, Lady A, anyone else observing - is entitled to make their experience whatever they prefer. Even if you were having fun and it sucks that she wants to cancel the RP, she is entitled to walk away. Just as you would be entitled to ask someone to stop plotting against your character if you weren't enjoying that particular plot thread. Roleplay is a team activity, and you can't force someone in a team to do things how you want to.
Now let's say Tim the Chef was secretly a hopeless romantic, and really wanted to get in Lady A's good graces. He compliments her hair, her lovely gold trimmed armor. He's astonished by her beauty and prowess as a warrior! He really wants to flirt with her and get closer to her. Lady A is still uncomfortable with the flirting, and sends you a tell asking you to stop.
This is not god modding. This is someone expressing to you, a mature adult, that your actions, intentional or not, are bordering something that makes them uncomfortable. It is your job as a respectable and mature adult to understand that everyone has different levels of comfort, and maybe flirting with Lady A isn't something Tim should keep doing. That doesn't mean that Tim and Lady A can't be friends though, provided that everyone involved is okay with that.
Now let's flip this another way. I create a character, Paul the Butcher. Paul had a really hard life, his parents were abusive, and this caused him to develop a psychosis. Paul is a butcher because he *really* likes seeing things get hurt and die. This is Paul's character, and he's Chaotic Evil. One day, Paul's lust for injury and death are no longer sated by butchering pigs to bring to market, and he goes after someone at the bonfire. He leads them off, and starts attacking them ICly.
This player, let's call them Jerry, expresses that they do not consent to have their character injured, and this type of roleplay makes them uncomfortable. At that point, I should tell them that that's okay, and apologize for making them uncomfortable. At *no* point should I try to guilt them into continuing something that they don't like.
The thing is? There's no difference between these three scenarios really except for the context of the roleplay. In any of these circumstances, someone was made uncomfortable, and it was your job as the player to respect that. You can always find someone else to flirt with, and Paul can always talk with his friends about making him a secret serial killer boss for the DMs to have fun with.
Bottom line? Respect for people's boundaries is the most important thing in roleplay. If you don't respect someone's boundaries regarding *anything* they are comfortable with, you cannot expect them to want to RP with you. On that note, flirting can absolutely become sexual harassment if you continue it when it has been clearly expressed as not wanted, regardless of your character's traits.
Respect and consent are the number 1 things that matter in roleplay.
Thank you for coming to my TEDTalk.
Don't be an arse to other people.
we all need to remember that there are people behind each character from all walks of life, all cultures and places far and wide and we all have different views on what we may or may not deem as appropriate and how things may come across to others.
