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Re: Cosmopolitan feats
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:37 pm
by mrm3ntalist
Tanlaus wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:22 pm
Outside of the addition of cosmopolitan feats the stealth/spot paradigm hasn’t really had complaints for a long time now. I don’t know that it needs a big change in terms of dice rolls or skill caps.
There is nothing wrong with hide/spot. Characters like Emanuel, a Druid heavily invested in spot should be able to detect everyone.
However the cosmo feats should be removed asap before players get too attached to them.
- they offer no rp incentives. You do not need to have more that 16 in perform for example. If you need to, multi class.
- they promote even more mix-maxing
- it detracts from a class/build uniqueness
- it simply is a power creep. Easy access to umd for classes that would lose a lot otherwiseie rangers losing spell progression, fes, epic feats - barbarians losing dr, epic feats or simply having more multiclassing options
- finally it goes against some changes(nerfs) that happened not too long ago. What is the reason for nerfing the ac of the dragon form if a Druid can pick cosmo tumble instead of armor skin for a +1 ac in total or allowing easier access to umd shenanigans for everyone
TL;DR the cosmo feats is a silly(sic) implementations
Re: Cosmopolitan feats
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:46 pm
by Tanlaus
mrm3ntalist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:37 pm
Tanlaus wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:22 pm
Outside of the addition of cosmopolitan feats the stealth/spot paradigm hasn’t really had complaints for a long time now. I don’t know that it needs a big change in terms of dice rolls or skill caps.
There is nothing wrong with hide/spot. Characters like Emanuel, a Druid heavily invested in spot should be able to detect everyone.
However the cosmo feats should be removed asap before players get too attached to them.
- they offer no rp incentives. You do not need to have more that 16 in perform for example. If you need to, multi class.
- they promote even more mix-maxing
- it detracts from a class/build uniqueness
- it simply is a power creep. Easy access to umd for classes that would lose a lot otherwiseie rangers losing spell progression, fes, epic feats - barbarians losing dr, epic feats or simply having more multiclassing options
- finally it goes against some changes(nerfs) that happened not too long ago. What is the reason for nerfing the ac of the dragon form if a Druid can pick cosmo tumble instead of armor skin for a +1 ac in total or allowing easier access to umd shenanigans for everyone
TL;DR the cosmo feats is a silly(sic) implementations
Right. My point was just pretty much the first part of yours. Nothing wrong with the way the paradigm works for dedicated spotters/sneakers outside of the cosmo feat issue.
Re: Cosmopolitan feats
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:47 pm
by Oarthias
mrm3ntalist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:37 pm
Tanlaus wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:22 pm
Outside of the addition of cosmopolitan feats the stealth/spot paradigm hasn’t really had complaints for a long time now. I don’t know that it needs a big change in terms of dice rolls or skill caps.
There is nothing wrong with hide/spot. Characters like Emanuel, a Druid heavily invested in spot should be able to detect everyone.
However the cosmo feats should be removed asap before players get too attached to them.
- they offer no rp incentives. You do not need to have more that 16 in perform for example. If you need to, multi class.
- they promote even more mix-maxing
- it detracts from a class/build uniqueness
- it simply is a power creep. Easy access to umd for classes that would lose a lot otherwiseie rangers losing spell progression, fes, epic feats - barbarians losing dr, epic feats or simply having more multiclassing options
- finally it goes against some changes(nerfs) that happened not too long ago. What is the reason for nerfing the ac of the dragon form if a Druid can pick cosmo tumble instead of armor skin for a +1 ac in total or allowing easier access to umd shenanigans for everyone
TL;DR the cosmo feats is a silly(sic) implementations
This, all this.
Sneaks have all known there are certain types of people (classes) that you don't shadow.. Never frack with a druid for one! it's RPed and accepted, but now with the cosmo feats things have changed and not for the better.
**edited to fix wording and grammar
Re: Cosmopolitan feats
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:05 pm
by dakalb
Cosmo never seemed a thing to me, by dwarf can hit an 85 spot and he doesn't have the feat
Re: Cosmopolitan feats
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:19 pm
by Steve
But, but but...who is to say that my Cleric of Gond shoudn't get full UMD use, without having to cheese dip into Rogue (or whatever)???
Re: Cosmopolitan feats
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:44 pm
by KOPOJIbPAKOB
There need to be official server stats about cosmo feat distribution to see whether they're harmful or not. I personally like them and the extra building options they bring. In a bigger scale, they didn't harm the balance. The change is mostly in various pvp orientiered Rangers and Dervishes becoming slightly stronger (builds like F12/D10/SD3/Temp5 or Ranger 26/anything 4), which is scary on paper while nothing in practice. Nothing really changed.
Though I gotta remind that the thread wasn't about Cosmo feats in general. It was about the OP being outraged by being detected and blaming cosmo feats, except cosmo feats have absolutely nothing to do with it, which I explained in the posts above. Spot progression is not a luxury and this progression alone is not enough - you need gear. 13 UMD is all you need to wear it. There's not a single spot-boosting buff that requires 33 UMD, thanks to elixirs. I'm pretty sure cosmo spot is unpopular while everyone picks cosmo umd, though we need vault stats first to see if I'm right. Without stats, it's pointless arguing about cosmo feats in general.
Re: Cosmopolitan feats
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:55 pm
by Blaze
A caster need 3 rogue dip, able learner and practiced spellcaster feats (1 class + 2 feats investment), probably 20% xp penalty
Now one feat is enough to have full UMD, tumble or spot.
The power creep is insane if we compare the two
Fighter 12/Weapon master 8/Frenzied Berseker 10 - Cosmo UMD and Tumble
Ranger 30 Cosmo UMD and Tumble
Fighter 10/ Dwarven Defender 10/ Divine Champion 10 - Cosmo UMD and Tumble
All of these builds were some of the best in PvE, now they're even better with 1 or 2 feat investment instead of a class and a feat.
Re: Cosmopolitan feats
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:14 pm
by mrm3ntalist
Blaze wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:55 pm
A caster need 3 rogue dip, able learner and practiced spellcaster feats (1 class + 2 feats investment), probably 20% xp penalty
Now one feat is enough to have full UMD, tumble or spot.
The power creep is insane if we compare the two
Fighter 12/Weapon master 8/Frenzied Berseker 10 - Cosmo UMD and Tumble
Ranger 30 Cosmo UMD and Tumble
Fighter 10/ Dwarven Defender 10/ Divine Champion 10 - Cosmo UMD and Tumble
All of these builds were some of the best in PvE, now they're even better with 1 or 2 feat investment instead of a class and a feat.
Sshhh.... "Nothing really changed." KEKW
Re: Cosmopolitan feats
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:18 pm
by KOPOJIbPAKOB
We have a bigger variety of appealing builds, indeed. That's a great thing.
Re: Cosmopolitan feats
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:21 pm
by mrm3ntalist
KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:18 pm
We have a bigger variety of appealing builds, indeed. That's a great thing.
Incorrect again. You have the same builds but more powerful
Re: Cosmopolitan feats
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:27 pm
by KOPOJIbPAKOB
mrm3ntalist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:21 pm
KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:18 pm
We have a bigger variety of appealing builds, indeed. That's a great thing.
Incorrect again. You have the same builds but more powerful
And thus more appealing, glad we agree. Point me at least one build that has become powerful out of proportions due to cosmo feats, leaving everything else within the archetype far behind.
Re: Cosmopolitan feats
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:32 pm
by mrm3ntalist
KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:27 pm
mrm3ntalist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:21 pm
KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:18 pm
We have a bigger variety of appealing builds, indeed. That's a great thing.
Incorrect again. You have the same builds but more powerful
And thus more appealing, glad we agree. Point me at least one build that has become powerful out of proportions due to cosmo feats, leaving everything else within the archetype far behind.
Rangers were not appealing before?
Barbarians were not appealing before?
Clerics were not appealing before?
Wizards/Sorcerers were not appealing before?
Yikes, I must have been playing a different game all these years...
Re: Cosmopolitan feats
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:34 pm
by Steve
KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:27 pm
And thus more appealing....
Re: Cosmopolitan feats
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:35 pm
by KOPOJIbPAKOB
You are dodging the question - name me at least one class combination that has become overpowered due to cosmo feats.
Re: Cosmopolitan feats
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:39 pm
by Steve
KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:35 pm
...name me at least one class combination that has become overpowered due to cosmo feats.
In all fairness, I have a Ranger heavy build that was great...but just got so much better with the Cosmo: UMD feat. Mechanically speaking.