Idea for Hips/Diversion

[Blackman D]

spotters have it easy, you only have to focus 1 skill where a sneak has to focus 2

That's really oversimplifying the major problem with this mechanic , more so nearly all gear with hide has move silently too .
I personally don't care about Keen Senses , just what I read in this topic and discord suggested detection is near impossible without it , lest I misunderstood .

its not oversimplifying anything, its literally the way it works, and detection should be impossible without investment, why would you be able to detect someone who puts all there skill points into stealth when you didnt do the same to detection?

you seriously think a d20 roll is suppose to beat 33 ranks + gear and stat? no

when it comes down to 33 ranks + gear vs 33 ranks + gear, detection wins in most cases and this is even ignoring the fact that you are talking about a +10 or nearly that bonus from dex to stealth vs maybe a +3 from wis to detection, and again you only need to invest in spot so really thats 33 ranks vs 66

listen only gives you a general location so you cannot directly attack anyone you can hear, so you will know they are there but you cant do anything other than aoe the spot

spot enables direct attacks and it counters feint

the problem people complain about probably comes from them not wanting to have a full set of spotting gear, which means gear vs gear they are not on par, then they dont have detection as class skills, so ranks vs ranks they are only half, then the fact they are not wis based classes so stat vs stat they are less

so people complain they have half of what they need and cant spot anything where its like: duh? a 40 + d20 should not be able to spot 70+, its simple math, once you are +30 over someones skill they just cant see you, if you can hit 70-80 detection you should be able to see everyone at some point

if your detection is not that high then one should not be complaining, a lot of people simply dont understand the engine mechanics that also work with stealth and detection, which is where that +10 buffer comes from (+20 from the roll, +10 from engine mechanics)