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Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:39 am
by Servin
DM Arkanis wrote:
Hitman Hard wrote:
DM Arkanis wrote: What happens if it is accidental as in a palidon unintentionally killing a good person? Would they lose their divine power (spells, etc.) but retain the TB feat?
No. The code specifically states a Paladin can only lose favour if he knowingly kills a good-aligned person.
Good information. I have had ongoing conversations with different players who have interpreted the pally code differently and suggested that even if they don't know the person is good that they suffer a loss of powers. Would there be any variation for the different gods in this interpretation?
Grey area that. I suppose it's all god dependable in the end but the following factors would need to be considered:

- Was the kill a result of lack of care?
- Was the kill intentional and not an accident?
- Was the death a necessary lesser evil? *forced choice between one death or another - elderly woman waiting to die of old age or a child with a future* - you get situations where you're pushed to the wall and have to choose as the lack of choice will result in death of both or some worse crap e.g. Two people drowning and time to only save one.
- Motivations on the act
- Was it a powerbuild? (if yes, you are forgiven)

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:03 am
by breteas
Deathgrowl wrote:
Darksider_war wrote: 6) The most powerful creature in the server is Castorious Leonai, aka the bandit at Boareskyr Bridge, who happens to be immune to magic, damage, knockdown, and whatnot.
Breteas and I killed him once. I even used the palemaster9 vampire which has knockdown. That worked.
Well, it's not that hard to kill him unless you're a mage. You simply don't have the damage potential to kill him, unless you dominate one of his friends of course. I believe he's got 5000hp.

He's not that strong at all. Neither is he immune to magic, knockdown only if he uses foundation of stone, and can cast more than 5 storms of vengeances (which should give a clue as to what he is), which can all be negated by a 1000gp Gust of wind wand. Just let him rage out his magics untill he starts to melee you with his laughable Ab. It's funny! :lol:

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:06 am
by Hitman Hard
Not sure. I'd hypothesize if the Paladin went on a cycle of rashly killing not so guilty people it would yield consequence and loss of favour, and it'd most definitely come about quicker depending on the God, as you said.

Helm or Tyr might relate to the knight upon his first or second screw-up, but I could see someone like Lady Firehair casting him into the dark immediately. Then again what if he worships a neutral-aligned deity like Jergal?

It's realy difficult to say with all the different interpretations out there, some would even argue about the methods of punishment a Paladin can carry out. Should I take this prisoner to town where I know without a doubt he'll be subjected to cruel interrogation tactis by dirty mercs and slapped around or should I cut his finger off here to ensure he'll never steal again before sending him down the dusty trail. Though if an Ilmater Paladin were nearby he'd probably get all pale and sickly in the face, shouting: "Evil! Evil!"

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Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:22 am
by Atlas
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Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:13 pm
by DM Arkanis
I am trying to remember which Wizards of the Coast book I read that had a holy order of paladins (humans) given a quest to go and rescue someone/village (I can't remember exactly what it was.) Fastest way to get there was through a forest inhabited by xenophobic elves. The elves met the pally's and told them to leave of die. The Pally's explained their quest and asked permission from the elves to travel the forest to save the village and people in it. The elves refused, and the pally's killed them all and proceeded to finish their quest. Now, the author of the book explained that the elves were not evil, but they stood in the way of a holy quest and the pally's were justified in killing them.

As far as my own personal interpretation, the ends did not justify the means here - kill a whole bunch of elves, whose land you are tresspassing on, who asked you to leave (i.e. didnt kill you on sight) because going around the forest added time onto your trip. The author made a compelling argument that due to the nature of the quest, that the knights here were holy paladins and favoured by their god, that the ends justified the means. Could there be an argument made to suggest that an evil deed is relative to the particular individuals involved on each side? The paladins here did not feel they did an evil deed because they were "justified" and sanctioned by their god (I wish I could remember WHICH god... think it was Tyr, but not sure.)

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:33 pm
by Considerate_
There's a lot of variables to take into account though...

Was the land considered owned by someone else? Sometimes those pesky elves have taken up refuge in a forest ages ago and claims it as their own, but jurisdictionally it's now under a human sovereign of some kind who've simply not bothered to clear the area. So the question that can be asked is, who are they to refuse someone right to a passage owned by someone else? Especially if those people have divine backing from a god of law and order, and on a quest from the authority that does own the land.

In the above scenario, you could consider the elves trespassers and nothing more than bandits. Although their intention weren't evil, then their actions were neither good or lawful either.


Just a thought. Personally I'd still be cheering for the elves, but I can see the argument :)

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:03 pm
by Hitman Hard
That is odd, was it a 4th edition novel? Cause Paladins are allowed to kill those who are guilty or those who impede their divine duty, despite alignment in 4.

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Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:15 am
by Atlas
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Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:20 am
by DM Arkanis
+! for Altas - AWESOME answer!

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:12 pm
by Hitman Hard
It goes to show the code is interlaced with contradictions, sometimes a Paladin must wade through it like a lawyer does a document.

And I was totally expecting Atlas to say they were in the wrong, so that's also interesting. :lol:

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:05 am
by DM Arkanis
Anytime there is an attempt to identify things totally as either black or white there is that danger of running afoul of the "rules" either through misinterpretation or inability at interpretation because they are so well defined. The less grey areas there are, the less opportunity there is for individuals to make decisions based on their own set of internal rules/value systems, and also causes problems if they come across a situation not defined by these rule codes.

Does the character then, "do good" by simply following the rules and nothing more?

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:06 pm
by flipside43
My first question is: How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

My second is: What are some holidays for the Triad or Helm which may be celebrated on the Sword Coast in the current time in game?

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:54 pm
by Rasael
I do believe the Paladin ability to Detect Evil and lies is hindered by certain Abjurations though. One of which is the non-detection ward.

So I do not believe it is necessarily impossible for an agent of evil to reside within a Paladin Order. But he needs to be meticulous and lucky. One accidental dispel and your ward is gone, unless you have a really high casterlevel. And you always need to remember to refresh the ward, without letting your companions know.

For a lich it would be even harder, since Paladins may turn undead. You don't want to be near them when they deal with undead in that case. Trouble is what happens if some random undead surprise you and your companions? To avoid that you'd have to be meticulous and lucky - again. Or just never leave the chapter house and be a scribe or some such.

So its very difficult to hide from Paladin because your companions are likely to find out. Not to mention that their deity may try to warn them somehow. But I don't think the rules say it is impossible. The novels just say its very unlikely, and that even the Zhentarim find it very difficult / impossible.

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:45 pm
by DM Arkanis
DM Arkanis wrote:Answers.com suggests:

"The amount of wood that woodchucks would chuck on a given day varies greatly with the individual woodchuck. According to a Wall Street Journal article, New York State wildlife expert Richard Thomas found that a woodchuck could chuck around 35 cubic feet of dirt in the course of digging a burrow. Thomas reasoned that if a woodchuck could chuck wood, he would chuck an amount equal to 700 pounds.
Some say it depends on three factors: •The woodchuck's desire to chuck said wood.
•The woodchuck's need to chuck the aforementioned wood.
•The woodchuck's ability to chuck the wood when it is a woodchuck"

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:50 pm
by DM Arkanis
flipside43 wrote:My first question is: How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

My second is: What are some holidays for the Triad or Helm which may be celebrated on the Sword Coast in the current time in game?
"Holy Days/Important Ceremonies: The priesthood of Tyr follows a monthly cycle of high rituals, beginning with Seeing Justice on the first day of each month, the Maiming on the thirteenth day of the month, and the Blinding on the twenty-second day of each month. These major rituals involve chanted prayers, thunderously sung hymns to the god, and conjured illusions: a gigantic war hammer that glows blinding white hanging over the heads of the congregation at Seeing Justice; at the Maiming, a gigantic right hand that bursts into view above the congregation surrounded by a nimbus of burning blood, then tumbles away into darkness and fades from view; and two eyes that burst into fountains of flaming tears until they have entirely spilled away and are gone at the Blinding. Early in the ceremony of the Blinding, symbolic blindfolds of diaphanous damask are bound over the eyes of the celebrants by clergy to remind the worshipers of Tyr's blindness.

In addition to the high rituals, Tyrrans celebrate daily rituals of prayer to the god, which take the form of a sung invocation, a series of responsive prayers led by a senior cleric, a short sermon of instruction or reading of wisdom from the Sacred Judgments of Tyr, and a rousing closing anthem. In temples and abbeys dedicated to the god, such rituals are celebrated every two hours around the clock, with the most important offices taking place at dawn, highsun (noon), the equivalent of six o'clock, and the equivalent of none o'clock. The dawn ritual, The Awakening, is a gentle, uplifting renewal of faith. The noonday ritual, the Hammer at Highsun, is a stirring, exultant expression of the church's vigilance and martial might. The evenfeast ritual, High Justice, is a stern, proud celebration of Tyr's commandments and the church's purpose. The evening ritual, the Remembrance of the Just Fallen, is a haunting, softly chanted reverence for those who have laid down their lives for justice, both inside and outside the faith—a ritual of quiet dignity and respect that always leaves many witnesses, even those who do not follow Tyr, in tears.

Holy Days/Important Ceremonies: During the year, the Tormish celebrate two great festivals (and on some years, three): the Divine Death on the 13th of Eleasias (commemorating Torm's death in battle just north of Tantras during the Time of Troubles, when he and Bane destroyed each other), the True Resurrection on the 15th of Marpenoth (when Torm returned to his powers, at the end of the Godswar), and the Shieldmeet.

The Divine Death is a solemn ceremony of remembrance for all the fallen who died for just causes, while guarding others, or in the holy service of Torm. After prayers and a huge feast, Tormtar go at dusk to the graves or battle sites where departed ones dear to them fell or now lie, light special candles, and pray through the night, recounting the deeds of the fallen to Torm so that none who fell may truly be forgotten. Torm often sends comforting dream visions to Tormtar on this night-but it is said among the faithful that if one sees Torm's death in a vision, it means that person's death in his service in the coming year.

The True Resurrection celebrates Torm's rise anew to power and is a joyous feast and revel where laws are set aside just for this one day and night so that Tormtar can stray from their principles of law and order once a year. Most use this opportunity merely to shock others by speaking freely or by enjoying sensual pleasures with their fellow Tormtar-but a few every year employ it to bring vengeance down on someone. (For example, a noble protected against all physical punishment by the laws of a realm but who ordered others mutilated might himself be mutilated on the night of the Resurrection.) Torm traditionally sends inspiring visions into the dreams of all his faithful in the sleep that follows this festival-and grants the Loyal Boon to a few, as a mark of his appreciation for their outstanding service: A new prayer is placed in their minds, granting them once chance to cast a new spell they would otherwise not be able to cast until they rose in experience by another level.

Shieldmeet celebrations are rituals expressing loyalty and renewing oaths and pledges. Tormtar prefer to marry, perform marriages, and finalize apprenticeship or training agreements on this day.

Throughout the year, faithful of Torm are expected to pray to the True God at least four times per day: at noon, dusk, midnight, and dawn. Prayers to Torm are uttered in a prescribed litany, which sounds like a rolling chant, and ask for guidance from the Lord of Duty, Loyalty, and Obedience. Since the Time of Troubles, the Penance of Duty has been included as part of the litany. To these rituals and prayers are added special prayers said when a follower of Torm needs extra inner strength to follow orders, to do a necessary but unpleasant task, or to support an ally or friend.

The faithful of Torm need practice only three special rituals: Torm's Table, Investiture, and Holy Vigil. Torm's Table must be observed at least once every two months. To perform this ritual, a Tormtar purchases or prepares a grand meal and then turns it over to a stranger (usually a beggar or citizen in need) to consume while they fast, waiting on the table. Within three days after the feast is done, the priest must confess any personal sins, failings, or shortcomings to anothe Tormtar priest and report on his doings to a superior.

Investiture is the solemn ceremony wherein a novice becomes a priest or priestess. It is the duty of every Tormish priest or holy warrior within a day's ride of the announced place of ritual to attend. The supplicant (only one priest is invested at each ceremony) prepares beforehand by rolling in mud or dust and then donning the oldest, filthiest clothes they can find or beg for. Thus attired, she or he fasts for a day and then in the evening (after the gathered priests have feasted) is brought in to the temple and washed clean with water by the visiting Tormtar. The supplicant is formally introduced to the presiding priest and accepted into the service of Torm-provided she or he passes the Holy Vigil. All the clergy then join in a hymn of hope, and withdraw, leaving the supplicant locked in the temple sanctuary alone to complete the Holy Vigil.

The Holy Vigil is repeated every time an individual advances in rank within the priesthood. Before departing, the presiding priest solemnly raises a naked bastard sword from the altar and casts it up into the air. By the grace of Torm (and a secret spell cast beforehand), the blade rises up and moves to hand a man's height above the supplicant's head, point downward. The more the supplicant gives in to fear or slumber or dwells on any doubts about his or her faith in Torm, the lower the sword slips. Though such swords move slowly enough that they rarely seriously injure when they touch the priest below them, the magic is broken if the sword draws blood, and the shame of being found with a fallen sword the next morning is extreme. If a Vigil is thus failed, the presiding priest prays to Torm for guidance and follows the True God's dictates: the Vigil may be repeated on the next night, or the failed one may be cast out of the church or charged with a penance or quest.

Holy Days/Important Ceremonies: There are no calendar-related special holy days or any other festivals observed by the Ilmatari. Instead, the daily rituals of prayer to Ilmater at least six times per day govern each and every day of service.

A special Plea must be made to Ilmater to receive divine dispensation for a Rest, which is a tenday vacation from serving Ilmater's dictates. Usually Ilmatari request this when they are emotionally exhausted, but some adventurer-priests use Rests to perform things Ilmater would otherwise frown upon. This custom is an established tradition that some leaders of the faith rely upon, sending their best fighting clergy out to do things that the church cannot otherwise accomplish (covertly removing a tyrant rather than confronting him openly, for example).

The most important ritual of the Church of Ilmater is the Turning: It is the duty of every priest of Ilmater to try to get dying persons to turn to Ilmater for comfort, receiving the blessing of the Broken God before they expire. As the veneration of Ilmater grows, even in death, his healing power becomes greater.