Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Bobthehero wrote:So you're including full casters as meleers now?

Okay

What is their main method of killing mobs?

Divine power, smash heads with melee weapons.

It's not caster v. melee; it's caster v. mundane.

Bobthehero wrote:So you're including full casters as meleers now?

Okay

I understand what you mean, Bob.

It's difficult to play without UMD nor casting, like you do: the gear you need to stay on top is so rare and expensive, you could look for it years without finding it...the gold sink due to healing and various consumables to counter the fact you are immune to nothing is another problem. The fact you are forced to select certain feats to deal the damage you need to cope with the immense health pools you have in front of you directly cuts into your defenses (AC, Saves), which other classes cover with the aforementioned casting abilities or UMD.

But take a look: everyone casts aside from Monk, Fighter, Barbarian, Swashbuckler and Rogue.

Monks are flat-out amazing mechanically, even without casting. But they are also very particular and don't appeal to everyone, so let's cheer up but leave them aside.

Typical SA Rogues are inherent support characters, glass burst to quickly finish enemies when they engage, and then restealth. That's what the class has most synergy with (low saves, low HP, low AC, high DMG calls for frequent use of stealth to simply avoid getting obliterated). Unique skills and high burst through SA give Rogues at least a unique niche, even though they have the hardest time in combat.

FIghters are the ones in the best spot: lots of feats, and the weapon focus/spec. line of feats means you CAN find the right balance between offense and defense. Certainly, some builds are FAR more viable, but until now, F/Ro(WD)/WM/FB was one of the overall best builds around, and combinations like F/WM/Dervish for instance are easy to play, and get the right dmg and AC to allow you to pick some save boosts that you can complement with items to reach decent performances. Are they fine? With tip top gear and excellent builds, barely. They would be fantastic if they could have access to gear comparable to what casters get (and grant them) through buffs. Currently, that gear is very seldom available, and the UMD used to cover for it just died. They CANNOT be fine, when the environment is balanced with UMD, Dragon Druids, EDM Clerics and FSs and arcane gishes or Warlocks in mind.

Barbarians and Swashbucklers are very problematic: both lacking feats, both extremely level intensive (Barbarian especially) and both with glaring weaknesses and little chance to cover them within 30 levels. You can play these successfully, but nobody can say they are "mechanically fine". Not by far.

TL ; DR: "mundane" classes are only four (five with Monk), and two of them through immense gear and very peculiar mechanics manage to keep being interesting. Meanwhile, 10-11 classes can generate many, great builds. The balance was overall good. We just needed to give these struggling classes the FREE feats AND items to become good enough.

I'm fine with UMD being nerfed, as it was ridiculous. It would be better if it had at least some utility though.

Fighters are only OK built a particular way; Casters are only OK if they're ~CL30. Plenty of characters are part caster/part melee. IMO that ought to be viable. Bard18/Arcane Archer9/Shadowdancer3 has gone from being playable to unplayable anywhere there is dispelling. Basically any Bard build that isn't ~CL30 is dead. IMO that's a great shame.

Thorsson wrote:I'm fine with UMD being nerfed, as it was ridiculous. It would be better if it had at least some utility though.

Fighters are only OK built a particular way; Casters are only OK if they're ~CL30. Plenty of characters are part caster/part melee. IMO that ought to be viable. Bard18/Arcane Archer9/Shadowdancer3 has gone from being playable to unplayable anywhere there is dispelling. Basically any Bard build that isn't ~CL30 is dead. IMO that's a great shame.
I'm fine with UMD being nerfed, as it was ridiculous. It would be better if it had at least some utility though.

Fighters are only OK built a particular way; Casters are only OK if they're ~CL30. Plenty of characters are part caster/part melee. IMO that ought to be viable. Bard18/Arcane Archer9/Shadowdancer3 has gone from being playable to unplayable anywhere there is dispelling. Basically any Bard build that isn't ~CL30 is dead. IMO that's a great shame.

The discussion in QC is around what to do about lesser/greater dispel and breach. My thought and the thought of some others has been around reducing the mobs that have dispel/breach memorized. I do not think UMD will be useless, nor will items with cast / day be useless. I think in the end we just need to bring it back to where in a given dungeon, you might see 0-3 dispels getting thrown at you over the course of your time there instead of getting spammed with 7-10 dispels within just a few encounters.

We have to focus on bugs with what is currently implemented before we can do this, but there are still several areas where dispel is not a factor. Even in Durlags only the Nightwalker will dispel you. I see no reason to think that a CL 15-25 character still won't be viable, but it will require some rethinking and careful planning on where you will go, especially on your own. For instance my CL 25 Ranger memorizes backups of the spells he really needs instead of having spells that are just gravy. Of course this wouldn't help if I was in Nashkel mine and ran in to too many Orog Sorcerors or Dueregar Runemasters, but going to other locations with no/fewer dispels is no different then prior to the update, besides having an extra spell handy.

Bard 18 get's a couple extra casts of the important spells, so if we get area's to have fewer mobs casting it, you would be relatively safe, just needing to recast now and then, right?

I dont think UMD will ever be useless. Imagine you are a weaponmaster up against a weaponmaster. If he charges you and you use a scroll of iron body, your pretty well off in that fight. Whos to say a wizard is going to throw a dispell at you when you are hacking them in the face?

Most the time Tyressen fights mages he throws silence at the ground and hacks away before they buff, or puts on a spell mantle. At that point its Dispell the weaponmaster or attack them. I have always played him like a tactition trying to slant every battle in his favor. Obviously he is easy to counter, WM have always been really easy to defeat with a 8 will save and all.

Tyressen's wife is a FS so he will utilize teamwork to overcome the change. I know, not everyone has a favored soul wife.

Invoker wrote: It's difficult to play without UMD nor casting.

This is how it is.

After nearly 5 years on BGTSCC, I finally have a full set of +4 gear (dodge boots, armor, Deflection, Natural, shield, weapon) and numerous sets of mainly +3 with a few +4. What this means is that I can now choose to play a melee-based toon—one that really has no magical abilities at all—and rarely uses UMD, though I still feel one MUST build with full UMD, else you just simply CANNOT solo most areas for very long, if at all. I don't spend my time going for bosses, either...unless once in a blue moon I find someone else going for it, and the RP drags me there.

I doubt it is possible, but instead of having all Classes be balanced and equal, the better choice in my opinion would be to have areas were either melee focused toons or caster focused toons, would excel and be required. As well, these Areas would be best suited to a complete party mindset (fighter/mage/rogue/cleric), or, there would be a third set of Areas that are really hard, hugely challenging, somewhat random and would ALWAYS require a well rounded Party.

A boy can dream.

Anyway, cutting down on the reliance of UMD would be nice, overall. The way it is with UMD and Consumables now, if your toon is rich enough, there really isn't anywhere on the Server your toon can't excel, and win. So the program really is: make a lot of coin, get the best gear you can, load up on UMD scrolls and consumables, and just conquer everything.

And then it's over. And then we want new Areas with a Challenge, but often what happens is if the challenge is too great, then the fun is gone, and we make it easier. Wait...there are actually very difficult areas on the Server already, but they are ignored and daily substituted for the Areas that are easiest to conquer and have the greatest item payout.

The current "under performing" Classes are still there for Role-play, and if there could be Areas made that tailor to a different play—the NOT FS, Bard, UMD, Gish paradigm—then it really wouldn't be that disappointing.

a umd wand use is supposed to be DC 20. People with 10 UMD are supposed to waste 1 charge and 1 round like 45 % of the time

Deathgrowl wrote:

Bobthehero wrote: Two if you include the meleer that has to relay on magic to get (#2) done

Five. Sorcerer and warlock are the only of those that rely more on offensive magic than the rest.

Am i the only who thinks of casters those that can cast spells... you know... from a spellbook?

If the cast the spells to ward themselves, then bash them with a stick, arent they still casters?

The Barbarian is not a caster. A Favored soul is. Am I wrong all this time?

mrm3ntalist wrote:

Deathgrowl wrote:

Bobthehero wrote: Two if you include the meleer that has to relay on magic to get (#2) done

Five. Sorcerer and warlock are the only of those that rely more on offensive magic than the rest.

Am i the only who thinks of casters those that can cast spells... you know... from a spellbook?

If the cast the spells to ward themselves, then bash them with a stick, arent they still casters?

The Barbarian is not a caster. A Favored soul is. Am I wrong all this time?

No. You're correct. But being a caster doesn't mean you're not a meleer. Ranger is also a caster. Assassin is also a caster. Blackguard is a caster. Cleric is a caster, even if it has 16 wisdom and 30 strength because it wants to melee.

Yes. Wizard and sorcerer are casters. But if they are gishes, they are also meleers.

What do you call the clerics and mages who cast spells offensively, then?

What is meant by "melee" is "mundane," and what is meant by "mundane" is "spell casting is not a core component of the class." No one looks at the Assassin spell book and says, "Yes, there's an example of a caster class."

There. Now we can dispense with the semantics and return to our circular comparison of PCs who have a ton of magic at their disposal and PCs who don't.

Deathgrowl wrote:No. You're correct. But being a caster doesn't mean you're not a meleer. Ranger is also a caster. Assassin is also a caster. Blackguard is a caster. Cleric is a caster, even if it has 16 wisdom and 30 strength because it wants to melee.

Yes. Wizard and sorcerer are casters. But if they are gishes, they are also meleers.

What do you call the clerics and mages who cast spells offensively, then?

If i ask you to make me a melee build, are you going to make me an FS??? What do others say about it? Was a large part of the discussion, based on considering FSs and bards as meleers?

I think the current problem is what people see as a "strong character". Currently it seems to focus on who is able to kill more mobs in a short time and dealing tons of damage to boss monsters. Is that what makes a character "strong"? I wouldn't value a build only on its killing ability.

To give my two cents:
Playing a caster has a huge disadvantage: They have to rest to regain their spells. Even if they can wipe the hole server once, they still do have to. While a fighter can use his full potential the whole uptime of the server, with maybe having to rest in the beginning to debug his feats. Which means, in my opinion, a fighter is more duarble than a wizard. He was before and still is after the new update.

mrm3ntalist wrote: If i ask you to make me a melee build, are you going to make me an FS??? What do others say about it? Was a large part of the discussion, based on considering FSs and bards as meleers?

No, if you ask me to make a melee build, I'm going to ask whether or not you want spells.

What do you call characters that use offensive spells? How do you make them distinct from characters who buff up and then melees?

Deathgrowl wrote:What do you call characters that use offensive spells? How do you make them distinct from characters who buff up and then melees?

mrm3ntalist wrote:Am i the only who thinks of casters those that can cast spells... you know... from a spellbook?

If the cast the spells to ward themselves, then bash them with a stick, arent they still casters?

The Barbarian is not a caster. A Favored soul is. Am I wrong all this time?

I made it clear before... I always assumed that in discussion about meleers and casters, melee was used to describe nonspellcasters.

If a fighter had gear that gave him deathward, +5AC, +5EB, damage boosts, immunities, illusions etc then they wouldnt have a problem. Those who can cast those wards (casters?) dont have a problem.