AlwaysSummer Day wrote:It's a shame nothing is going to be done about this. We already have plenty of rules stopping power builds from grossly unbalancing the server. Somehow FS are just immune from this and it is disappointing.
FS is a class, not a build. FS builds are not grossly imbalancing the server: they are just among the easiest to build, use and equip builds. In other words, they are noob-friendly. Several other archetypes perform at the same level, in different ways.
If you want to read more about the subject:
Aelcar wrote:I had promised a friend I wouldn't post anymore, but he had promised me he wouldn't quit DMing first, so I am sure he won't mind this little...exception.
I read this thread entirely, and I have to agree with those feeling the majority of posts come more from "gut feelings" rather than hard facts or true problems.
- What is currently available
EDM Favored Soul is very strong. However, people tend to underestimate what else is available, often blinded by "that time that guy with a FS did this or that...".
The truth is, a proper Warlock can do pretty much the same things. A proper Dwarven Defender can do the pretty much the same things. A Dragon Druid can do pretty much the same things. A proper Bard can do pretty much the same things. A decent Cleric can do pretty much the same things. Arcane gishes are also more or less there.
The point is, players have alternatives...
- EDM FvS Advantages
We can safely say that EDM Favored Soul is better rounded than the above. For instance, Warlock needs a few items and consumables to perform at that level, whereas a Druid will need even less equipment than the FS itself, but will kill a bit slower. Is this a balance issue? No. When you balance, you have to consider the maximum performance reachable, not the level of commitment needed to reach it.
For example, a caster Wizard will always be harder to play than the above because (among others) of the limited resources and inherent fragility under the buffs, but that doesn't mean it's weak: it just means the player's skill will be a far more decisive factor since the margin of error is narrower. A WM/FB, by comparison, can be played by me and you or someone in irreversible coma with pretty much the same outcome: point, click to attack, repeat. Once it's geared and ready, it becomes rather trivial.
I have read of players very concerned about the Weapon Focus and Specialization feats, the 10 DR, the Resistances, the ca. 3 mins Haste per day. I am pretty sure nobody in QC thought twice about these, because they are largely irrelevant to the overall performance. The reason why EDM FS is so strong, as mrm3ntalist has already pointed out early on, is the melee-oriented Cleric's spellbook (so the WIS-CHA split does not hurt much, offensive spells are not needed to kill) combined with CHA synergies on saves and EDM duration as well as scaling divine dmg increase.
However, unlike some think, EDM FvS is not a perfect machine, and even though they are few, it has chinks in its shining armor. Since this was a legitimate concern, I decided to spend a couple of words on it.
- DMing an EDM FvS (or more)
There is nothing a DM cannot do behind the client, and good DMs have shown this time and time again, demonstrating increasing levels of surgical precision in their events (for example, my personal experience with DM Narshe in the past and even more so DM Bloodlust more recently, until February).
I could explain the concept numerically, but that approach would be impractical for a DM in his or her everyday trade, especially if he/she is not the most knowledgeable as far as mechanics are concerned. Instead, it's much easier to make an example.
If you have a party with a HiPS Rogue, a Fighter type, an EDM FS and a blaster warlock, how do you react? Which kind of encounter will you build? Well...surprisingly enough, it doesn't matter, as long as you offer counterplay.
A DM thinking the EDM FS is the strongest, therefore the enemies need to challenge its stats will only result in the others dying during the "boss fight" (if not earlier), which is, in fact, craptastic: it's like watching a great movie, and leave 20 mins before the end. Terrible.
The right approach is: which character types are weaker, why, and what can their players do to compensate? A very quick glance should tell you the following:
- Big AoE death and control effects based on Will or Fort that ignore LoS are idiotic, because it's almost a death sentence for the rogue (barred light-speed mantling without warning...in a long event, almost impossible to keep that level of concentration, especially if you are busy RPing).
- The enemies need to have a Spot/listen that is manageable for the Rogue's HiPS. Those you plan to be "spotters" should hit softer in order to avoid "one-shot" situations, and be slower than the Rogue to offer counterplay.
- The enemies need to be suited to the Fighter power level, especially AC and AB-wise. This forces the FS to step into the realm of the short-term buffs or be either irrelevant, or worse, in danger.
- Fighter, Warlock and Rogue can fight often without resting. Forbid resting. Make frequent mid-level encounters happen, distanced by 6-8 mins from each other at least (given the time to RP, not a problem) instead of a single megafight where the FS (or every caster, really) can simply just fire everything and profit, forgetting the consequences.
In this fashion, you will discover a couple of things: fighter, warlock and rogue are competitive, challenged and have fun all along. The FS needs to manage its power carefully, for if it roflstomps the first two to three waves, it will run out of spells and be in trouble later on. Once the short-term buffs are no longer so readily available, you might find out that those 300 HP (usually less) aren't so many, that Disjunction at the wrong time really caused irreparable damage or even death, and that AB without Divine Power isn't so high, after all...
- Conclusion
Is the FvS too strong? Is it so strong that is disruptive? Are there other classes and character types capable of performing at the same level? In my opinion, respectively: probably slightly, no and yes. A sensible attempt at balancing was suggested by QC already: that would disrupt the synergy with EDM and BG/Pal in general, but as some pointed out also alter the RP angle significantly (stats are a very important aspect of RP).
Barring FS from cross-classing with Turn Undead classes would be an even more radical solution, and that would suddenly put the FS in "Tier 2" power-wise behind the other aforementioned types. That would be understandable in a general power level reduction strategy (fully against the "BGTSCC caters to every player and playstyle" policy that is a staple of this server's history), which involves an amount of work that is unhealthy for a game with a tad too many bugs to begin with, a few years too many under the belt, a volunteer dev team nobody can expect to work around the clock and a total playerbase of 200 people.
So the question is: why do you want it nerfed?
- If it's the pvp, you are playing the wrong game
- If it's the pve, good players can do basically the same things with many characters. Probably nerfing 40% of the classes and PrCs isn't a good idea.
- If it's the events, it's like being a god and being pissed it's raining. Even Red Wizards can control the weather, not to mention a DM...
- If it's the RP, one of the main server rules is: "Don't be a jerk. Benefit of the doubt for others' RP, don't judge someone else's RP a priori". I have met several excellent RPers playing FSs. I have met several extremely bad paladins who weren't FSs. Classes have nothing to do with anything, really: it is, and always will be, the players.
- If it's the fact another character is more powerful than yours, well...you either are a munchkin (and then my suggestion would be play one, or one of the others mentioned) or I can assure you, there are several more.
I have only played FS to test it in 2012, so it's not like I am sentimentally involved with the class. It's just that I consider wanting to take something away from someone else without valid reasons a baffling attitude, even more so when this is one of the few classes which are NOOB-friendly and can hit top performance levels without much money or equipment.
Happy RPing everyone.
About the rest:
We could set one save to low.
This would do absolutely nothing to FS builds. If this were to be sneak fixed, probably only mrm3ntalist, karond, ac81, selande and very, very few others would even notice.
Or require 5 levels of Cleric/BG/pally to take edm.
This would do little to FS, and hurt every other EDM build a lot.
We could switch the casting stats around.
Also not going to reduce their power: you would just build a different FS exactly as good, for different reasons. This could be an idea if people are tired of seeing the same kind of FS builds, but has nothing to do with their power.
Even a simple reduction in hp or skill points would at least be headway.
This, nobody would even see, aside from the odd DM asking for a skill roll...HP and skill reduction, unless they are massive (and then undermine the very playability of a class), determine little change in power level.
Yet no. It seems FS will remain as gods amongst men.
It's a perception issue. Read my post above for more examples of "gods among men".
Unfortunately, people are more often concerned with the end result rather than the factors determining that result.
A bit like people stating that dwarves cannot tank as well as Druids, and Druids need to go, and having "Dungeons&Dragons&Druids" in their signature as protest...and then finding out years later dwarves tank better, you know...
It's the recurring problem with people knowing little about the game (which is fine, mechanics aren't key to play such an easy game), not caring to learn more (also fine, as PvP is optional and PvM is easy on BGTSCC), but then wanting to discuss balance and accusing the team of favoritism when things don't go their way (which is obviously not possible, unless every knowledgeable player quits).
Not saying this last one is your case, but you read that kind of trash often these days, and I can imagine it might get tiresome for the Staff.
