Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2020)

[yyj]

After running Reaching Woods 10 times at different levels and characters, I have noticed diminishing returns as level increases, the boss chest trend is only consistent in sometimes giving 800 +/- gold. I will continue these runs for now.

I am always investing on deathward wand because if your fort is not high enough or you don't have steadfast, then the shamans can fugue you easily and heroism pots, so I am thinking that the boss chest makes up for these costs.

[izzul]

After running Reaching Woods 10 times at different levels and characters, I have noticed diminishing returns as level increases, the boss chest trend is only consistent in sometimes giving 800 +/- gold. I will continue these runs for now.

I am always investing on deathward wand because if your fort is not high enough or you don't have steadfast, then the shamans can fugue you easily and heroism pots, so I am thinking that the boss chest makes up for these costs.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=74596

congratz on fiding the epic salamander armor

[yyj]

After running Reaching Woods 10 times at different levels and characters, I have noticed diminishing returns as level increases, the boss chest trend is only consistent in sometimes giving 800 +/- gold. I will continue these runs for now.

I am always investing on deathward wand because if your fort is not high enough or you don't have steadfast, then the shamans can fugue you easily and heroism pots, so I am thinking that the boss chest makes up for these costs.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=74596

congratz on fiding the epic salamander armor

Thanks, I found that one at the Cloud Peaks I think either at Frost Giants or the Lich Cave (Can't really remember as I keep a lot of unid loot on the horse) but that one wasn't found at reaching wood.

[yyj]

I recently joined a party into Frost Keep on a level 21 character, I noticed that the chests were really poor, would it be possible to perhaps do some adjustments?

I think there is a big discrepancy on the level still but my character was able to not be useless in that area.

[Steve]

2021/01/17—

Graypeaks (CR 27) with PC Lvl 30 Surface Aasimar (solo) — 10th (and final) run after Loot Rebalance

Chest:
Warhammer mundane
Scroll of Magic Vestement (5)
Gauntlet - CON +1, purple 15m

Gr. Fire Elemental drop:
Bastard Sword = vamp regen +1

Chest:
52gp
Chain Shirt +4
Scroll of Mass Blindness

Chest:
31gp
Scale Mail +3

Chest:
50gp
Scroll of Hammer of the Gods
Silver Necklace

Chest:
127gp

Chest:
57gp
Deadly Frost Trap

Black Pudding Elder drop:
Acid Flask grenade
Codex Necromantica book
Black Lotus Extract poison

Beholder Cave’s Chest:
34gp
Half Plate mundane

Fire Giant drop:
Bolts - vamp regeneration +1

Fire Giant drop:
Gauntlet - CON +1


Fire Giant General’s Cave—

Fire Giant General drop:
5000gp
Heavy Shield = -05% Spell Failure

Fire Giant General’s chest:
711gp
Half plate +1 (iron)

Chest:
54gp
Scroll of Mass Lesser Vigor

Chest:
57gp
Spear +1

Chest:
Heavy Shield - AC +1, HP +5

Rat drop:
Amulet - INT +1, WIS +1, 10m blue light

Gr. Fire Elemental drop:
Helmet - AC +1 Deflection

Stone Giant drop:
Amethyst stone

Stone Giant drop:
Sling mundane

Stone Giant chest:
38gp
Potion of Speed

Fire Giant drop:
Full plate - -05% arcane spell failure
Chain Shirt - 15m blue light

Giant War dog drop:
203gp


6 outside chests.

Well, 10 runs, 10-11 hours of RL. I cannot see where the Rebalance of Loot from chests gave me a better return than the Boss + mobs drops produced, in this "test." I may have found 3x +4 Items with no extras, but +4 is not longer epic on this Server. In 10 runs, not a single Item on par or actually from an Epic NPC Merchant.

I wanted to love this Rebalance, and thought that it would show me that loot grinding would be more productive than before the Rebalance—which is why I never do this stupid kind of thing!!!—but as the 10 runs show, it did not perform, for me, as advertised. Congratulations to those that it IS producing for.

But, imho, I'd say that a CR27 Area, after 10 visits, should produce something of truly epic value, for the Player (and their toon). Please adjust accordingly. Thank you.

Hidden: show

2021/01/09—

Graypeaks (CR 27) with PC Lvl 30 Surface Aasimar (solo) — 9th run after Loot Rebalance

Fire Giant drop:
Potion of Lesser Visage of the Diety
Shortbow - Massive crates 7, Mighty +5

Fire Giant Mage drop:
Scroll of Circle of Doom (20)
Heavy Shield mundane

Chest (loud crunch):
Broken Item
Rapier - EB vs Lawful +3

Gr. Fire Elemental (yellow name) drop:
Spoon (bet it’s HOT!)
Bullets mundane
Morningstar - AB +3, EB +2, Sonic 10% immunity
Potion of Aura of Glory CURSED

Chest outside Beholder’s Cave:
704gp

Beholder drop:
199gp
Boots - AC + 2

Beholder’s Cave chest:
41gp
Potion of Speed

Fire Giant drop:
236gp

Fire Giant drop:
Leadership of Neverwinter book

Chest (loud crunch):
Broken Item
40gp
Scroll of Heal

Chest:
48gp
Potion of Barkskin

Chest:
25gp
Scroll of Heal
Falchion - EB +4


Fire Giant General’s Cave—

Fire Giant General drop:
5000gp
Cloths AC+1
Scroll of Protection from Energy (10)
Potion of Polymorph Self (17)

Fire Giant General’s Chest:
28gp
Shuriken - EB+2, Daze DC=14

Chest:
Healer’s kit +6
Boots - STR+1, Negative Energy saves +1

Chest:
71gp
Medium Armor - White Dragon breastplate - AC +2, Cold +1, Cold/5-, Creeping Cold 1/use, Weight Reduction 60%

Chest:
901gp

Gr. Fire Elemental drop:
light shield - spell immunity Power Word Kill

Gr. Fire Elemental drop:
195gp

Stone Giant’s Chest:
65gp
Perfected Alchemist’s Fire (you wonder if the Fire Giants were trading goods, yes?!?)

Gr. Fire Elemental drop:
Longbow - mass cries 9
Silver Ring
Ring - Deflection +2, Electrical 10% immunity


Lots of coin generation. Nothing epic nor usable by my toon. 6 chests (out of 8) in the outside Area.

Hidden: show

2021/01/05—

Graypeaks (CR 27) with PC Lvl 30 Surface Aasimar (solo) — 8th run after Loot Rebalance


Chest:
53gp
Longsword +3 EB
Ring - Heirloom of Asenath - CHA +3, Sorcerer Level 2 spell, Concentration +4
Gold Necklace

Chest:
41gp

Chest:
45gp
Silver Necklace

Chest outside Beholder Cave:
1087gp

Beholder drop:
Scroll of Mine Vine (9)

Pudding Elder drop:
Wraith Spider Venom

Pudding Elder drop:
Colossal Spider Venom

Beholder Cave chest:
52gp
Purple Binder on Zhentarim History

Chest:
50gp
Shortbow - EB +3, Mighty +4



Fire Giant General’s Cave—

Fire Giant General drop:
5000gp
Cloth Armor - AC +1, HP+5
Scroll of Song of Discord

Fire Giant General’s Chest:
45gp
Scroll of Glove of Invulnerability
Dusty Tome

Chest:
49gp
Bracers of Specialization - Deflection AC +3, Parry -2, Spellcraft -2, Enhancement Penalty -1
Padded Armor +4

Chest:
22gp
Scroll of Confusion (5)
Silver Necklace

Chest:
687gp
Scroll of Feeblemind
Scroll of Mass Aid

Spellgaunt yellow name drop:
139gp
Ring of INT +2

Chest:
25gp
Scroll of Hammer of the Gods
Thieves Tools +10


The Dusty Tome may pay off!!??!! For the record, only 5 chests in the outside Area (there were 8 before the Rebalance).

Hidden: show

2020/12/29—

Graypeaks (CR 27) with PC Lvl 30 Surface Aasimar (solo) — 7th run after Loot Rebalance

Chest:
46gp
Bullets of Screaming - Sonic 1d4, On Hit Silence DC=14 50% / 2 rounds

Chest:
45gp
Light Shield +1

Chest:
38gp
Kukri +1
Fire Agate (lore appropriate!! LOL)

Fire Giant Mage drop:
Scroll of Gemidyans missile
Gauntlet - EB +1, Open Lock +1
Gauntly - AB+1

Chest (outside Beholder Cave):
889gp

Beholder drop:
Healer’s Kit +10

Beholder drop:
259gp

Beholder drop:
Banded Mail mundane

Beholder’s Cave Chest:
887gp

Gr. Fire Giant drop:
289gp

Chest:
1309gp
Scroll of Clairaudience

Chest:
26gp
Potion of Righteous Might



Fire Giant General’s Cave—

Fire Giant General drop:
5000gp
Clothes - Improved Saving Throws Fear +3
Potion of Lesser Visage of the Diety
Shurikens - Vamp Regen +1

General’s big chest:
30gp
Potion of Protection from Energy
Alexandrite gem

Chest:
38gp
Epic Fire Trap (OMG…technically an epic item cause, you know…THE NAME!)

Chest:
Rapier - 60% of Weight

Chest:
49gp
Scroll of Energy Immunity

Stone Giant’s Chest:
53gp
Potion of Cure Serious Wounds


Not. Getting. Better.

Hidden: show

[yyj]

Just tried the Cloakwood cave level 2 with a lvl 12 character, while the monsters give around 42 exp per kill, the chests are just giving very small amounts of gold. Perhaps the CR of chests here needs to be looked at? The level 1 seems fine, I have not tried 3rd level yet.

I still think the level range should be increased on most maps for chests, currently this mechanic feels very intrusive and OOC, I want to like these changes but they really need to be tuned.

[gedweyignasia]

But, imho, I'd say that a CR27 Area, after 10 visits, should produce something of truly epic value, for the Player (and their toon). Please adjust accordingly. Thank you.

I think the estimate I gave you was 30 runs to get a feel for the new loot system. Several items you have received from chests are certainly the result of a random selection from the highest-tier gear; you just didn't get the best items within the selection of highest-tier gear.

Boss drops certainly seem to be far more generous than other loot, and that's something that deserves some attention going forward. I don't think we can have a 10% chance of an epic-level loot run producing Epic Store quality gear because of the profound economic implications that would have on the server. As of the loot rebalance, it seems the system may be a little too generous. We're a little slow to change that because the server-split is going on, our real lives are a little extra demanding lately, and we want a lot of data so we're not constantly overcorrecting the system.

My personal preference would be to have a target average gold return for chests of each CR, and to have a random worth selected from a Poisson distribution centered on that gold value. This will require a great deal of research and work before it can be done, but chad from QC has done a large part of the work for a first draft of this system by assigning every single reward in the existing loot table an appropriate level. (It is worth noting that without changing the average gold return, the higher the chance of an epic store quality item, the lower the median loot value must be. So players are paradoxically stuck between getting better loot in a typical run or being more likely to have an exceptional run.)

I'm not sure if any of this is reassuring, what you want to hear, or believable from your own experiences with the loot system, but I hope you'll bear with us and continue to help as we try to find the right balance.

[Steve]

My thoughts linger on the “advertisement” of 30 runs (= 30 hours RL) for a result. Or, that being a promise that can’t be delivered on.

I wish we could have a more detailed conversation about investment granting rewards, versus mechanics of the reward system.

Imo, the more mechanics that are in place to equally or consistently or dependently give results, the more mechanical the game becomes, and less role-play. What should be happening is that epic gear is granted/gifted from RP investment, not just because of X hours = X Items. But I know this would require a better non-mechanical system on BGTSCC, which we simply cannot rely on.

Thus, if we HAVE TO rely on a mechanical system of rewards on the epic level, what is the decision for X hours RL investment to equal X level of appropriate reward? Because otherwise, it is so random, so unreliable, that like before the Rebalance, some will gain and some will not, and the system will remain appearing unreliable, or worse, preferential.

And personally, if I wanted to game in a system that was preferential, I’d rather the gains from the preference be based on Role-play investment.

[Steve]

I think the estimate I gave you was 30 runs to get a feel for the new loot system.

BTW, I reported 10 loot runs in a specific area, with a specific toon. But these have not been the totality of my play, using a handful of different PCs ranging from Level 10 to Level 21. In any of the other instances, I cannot say, as well, that I found anything better than before the Rebalance. I’m serious here, honest here. I soooo very much want to love this Rebalance, to see it and experience it and say “wow, what a great improvement.”

But if the result is only gaining more Gold Pieces through selling “junk” items—those with either zero worth to my Toon or zero worth to ANY PC—than I’m sorry to write that I can but question the change, or at least, agree that some serious adjustments must be made.

And I understand that RL time and issues for everyone takes precedence over this game.

BTW, for the record, for over 5 years I offered to Staff to work in the Loot System database, because I’ve known via Luna for 10 years now how messed up it was. I’m very glad Chad is making the work and making headway—thanks bud!—but it didn’t have to wait this long, either.

[Thaelis]

Since the rebalance I've done about 10-12 runs through Reaching Woods.

So far I have found two very decent items, better than anything I ever found in 100+ runs through Fields of the Dead, Uldoon trail and Nashkel Foothills.

One of the items I guess I could get 50K for if I wanted (I intend to use it for RP instead).

Under the old system it was more rewarding for me to stay in FotD forever, because it has more unlocked loot containers.

So I really like the rebalance, it rewards you for doing what adventurers should be doing, talking on deadly challenges.

And if you play an RP build and can't survive in these high level areas alone or even in a pair, just hang around at East Gate and tag along with some badasses.

[EasternCheesE]

From my experience, running a lvl 21-22 PC in CR 22,23,25,26 areas (Duergar compund, the wilds, Oghranns), i was able to loot decent amount of +4 AC/EB items together with ninja amulet epic. Enough to say, from my regular grind session, my PC made about 500k gold in a month taking into account he was about lvl 12 in the beginning of it and only kickstart he had were 50k of coins and +3 AC amulet. So, through my lootruns, i was able to loot enough of remarkable (maybe, not that epic that many people expect them to be in epic area) items that now serve my PC. Say, i got +4AC boots, +4 AC +2 fort save helmet, Ninja amulet epic (and another plain +4 amulet), numerous +3 AC +3 stat items and also made enough gold to buy myself a bearskin armor and a belth of growth without appraiser services and at 0 appraise invested (Which means, i payed nearly full price for them). There can be some balance issue regarding overleveled PCs and overall chest CR margin, but from the perspective of a lvl 1 PC who started with plain +3 AC items with few extras and going to full +4 AC items with most of them already having extras, i felt my own way to something like "middle-class" epic player being smooth. Please also take into account that UD offers for less varied epic experience, thus i wasn't able to visit Surface-like looting schedule of Trolls-Graypeaks-Cloudpeaks-Nashkel mines-Reaching woods-Wyrm forest etc.
I may have just being lucky while you weren't Steve, because i myself looted many good things on same days you were posting your graypeaks reports.

[gedweyignasia]

It's reassuring to hear that others have found the system to be generous, since it probably needs to be scaled back a bit.

I’m sorry to write that I can but question the change, or at least, agree that some serious adjustments must be made.

Do you have a suggestion as to how much gold a chest should provide based on CR and what % of the time an epic store item should appear based on CR?

[yyj]

It's reassuring to hear that others have found the system to be generous, since it probably needs to be scaled back a bit.

[/quote]

That really depends who you ask, I have spent a long time testing these loot changes and I feel poorer than before.

The most epic stuff I find is useless for all of my chars, and nobody buys it.

I feel like our ability to make gold has been hampered quite a lot and that is how I feel it.

Looting and grinding feels like a waste of time and money .

[gedweyignasia]

It's reassuring to hear that others have found the system to be generous, since it probably needs to be scaled back a bit.

That really depends who you ask, I have spent a long time testing these loot changes and I feel poorer than before.

The players who are discontent have made it very clear.

[Hoihe]

There really needs to be an expansion on what is considered an appropriate CR area. Or areas have their CR reviewed and bumped up a fair bit.