Possible QC change - Community input appreciated

[chad878262]

We already changed server time, but it was to extend time, not shorten. This only impacts hour/level spells t though, not round, minute and 10 minute/level durations. I don't see us shortening it as that brings back the issue from an rp standpoint of watching the sun rise and set multiple times in the course of rp. Lengthening the rest timer has been discussed before and I imagine could be discussed in more detail.

[mrm3ntalist]

but it's all in your head really.

Quoted for truth!

Nice, taking sentences out of context for that hilarious punchline, keep on keeping on sir.

Its not out of context. The RP problems, the balance problems its all in our head. Everyone sees them as they see fit.

Keep on keeping sir.

Favored Souls don't care one whit about what the gods think. They are, by definition, their own special little snowflake. They're single-player Chosen Ones in a multiplayer setting.

If we were to take action against all snowflake characters or badly RP classes and builds, then the only class we would be allowed to play would be level1 commoners. Everythign else should be removed.

Does any other class meet the following criteria, criteria that the FvS meets as has been widely agreed upon in this thread?

• 1=Contradictory, problematic RP, as has been explained in this thread, that is to say, if you RPed the class properly as explained by the description, you'd still not make a lot of sense in the context of the server, not just not following your character class sheet.
• 2=Immense mechanical power potential.

If you can find one such class, then please, go forth and make a thread about it, and we'll discuss all that needs to be discussed.

I mean, this thread is solely about FvS, but if QC didn't meet so many bureaucratic obstacles, imposed by QCers themselves on themselves, in the game server right now we would have a good portion of some of the changes/fixes/nerfs to these features to make the server a better and more balanced place.

In red comments to features that were already worked on and in yellow changes that could very well go in and at least I think would be reasonable changes. In green features that I deem fine in the context of the other changes or just actually unchangeable. The parts where I made no comments I clearly don't know immediately from looking at the items what needs to change, so probably nothing specifically.

Hidden: show

Expose weakness (We had both a fix to autohit and a nerf to the stacking AC debuff. Developed. Was turned down.
Death attack and manyshot Fixing this would be completely reasonable, I think, death attack is the only sort of sneak attack that has this behavior, you can get 6 9d6 damage added to your overall damage per round, it's more of a fix than a nerf.
Shapechange
Bards We could nerf the way Bard Songs DCs use perform, which can net you very high dcs with stacking perform gear.
Clerics We could for example remove evasion from water domain clerics, it's one of the most disgusting cleric dips and widely popular. On the topic of evasion we could make it only work for characters wearing light or no armor, as it should be.
Druids
Hips We could, IDK, not nerf c&c into uselessness, in the context of the introduction of an epic shop that brings sooo much hide and ms gear
Abilities with extremely high DC
Monks flurry The extra attacks are probably hard coded. Rasael might know better.
Palemaster summons
Dwarven Defenders fix some of the above things and they'd be fine, like evasion not working with heavy armor and clerics not getting it easily.
Wizards
Warlocks
Sorcerers
CE/ICE and Casting We could make it not work together, I think it's more of an issue with armored spellcasters.

Most of these could be considered fixes more than nerfs anyway, though effectively nerfs of course.
That's just off the top of my head without looking at the specific forums. And I'm not even the QCer that cares the most about balancing things.
But could it be done? Yes. Most of the new content being worked on has been added already anyway. It just needs fixing, which this could well be counted as a part of.

So really, I think those are all reasonable changes that have been already discussed plenty and could be discussed further, but there needs to be a consensus at some point in BGTSCC's situation and this is what we can't achieve.

But I digress, this topic is about FvS.

What bureaucratic obstacles? What are you even talk about? There was a discussion, a desicion was made. Up to you if you can deal with the desicion or not. Dont go out there and invent bureaucratic obstacles and nonsense like that.

As far as the changes, you didnt invent the wheel. There were even more skilled players in the QC before us. You think they didnt know those? The problem here is time and what is best for the server. Why bother spend our time nerfing classes, feats etc when we can do so much more with it? Where FSs such a big problem all these years? The server has been going on for what, 7 years? Now FSs are such a big problem you want them removed?

You might think the nerfing path is the way to go, others dont. It is so simple.

PS: As far as the one issue on this list that was turned down (EW), tell us why it was turned down? Didnt the two QCers that tested reached the same conclusion? Did anyone else disagree?

Being a prophet after the fact, isnt how it works.

[mrm3ntalist]

If by a decision being made you mean nothing being done because a consensus isn't reached, fair enough. It's exactly what I mean by bureaucratic obstacles.

Wasnt there a poll?

Here, let me refresh your memory

But then QC came along, even after QC themselves made the public thread, and just started shooting everything down in regards to nerf, with endless 20 page discussions and no decision making, then there was a poll in QC and at first it looked like a nerf (including up to removal) would be approved as decided, but then some folks changed their minds and -nothing- was done, that was against the server's betterment, in my mind anyway.

This is the one i pmed you, telling you not put QCers that change their mind on the spot, as if it is a bad thing.

Get a grip

[AC81]

I think it's something we need to look at. Bring server time closer to real time and make the rest timer so that 1 minute/level buffs don't last the entire rest timer. Maybe allow them to last for half that. So an extended 1 minute/level buff from a CL30 pc will last two hours, set the rest timer to 4 hours. You could also go with a 1:2 or 1:4 real time : server time ratio. So if you were online for 2 hours in real time that would represent one rest period or 4 hours server time.
This would force casters to more carefully consider their spell choices. Spontaneous casters would be at an advantage as would warlocks (although their RP is somewhat prohibitive) but they would need to be wise with their use of short-term buffs. OR they could all just take along the local fighter ... you know, the one that doesn't use magic!

But really ... could we look at this? It is a way to buff fighters and nerf casters without changing anything specific about any one class.

[mrm3ntalist]

In regards to FvS? Yes, which ended in favor of doing nothing, because a consensus wasn't reached, 9 v 9. http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=53556

So, because the poll didnt go the way you wanted, your conclusion is to remove the class?

What kind of logic is that?

If you cant accept an outcome, that is on you... Dont invent bureaucratic nonsense

[mrm3ntalist]

You're really running out of arguments and trying to make me fumble mine up. Well it's not working. Sorry.

Ha! Thats a new one. You are the one saying that everyone wants the class removed etc but the votes on QC were split.

Then you go from that vote, to what YOU want to do...

Sorry Chambordini...

I want the class removed because it makes no sense in RP. The poll is irrelevant, it ended in a draw. Removal is a thing many people want to see done too, as you can read in these 28 pages, so it's not just my single opinion.

Yes, whatever doesnt go our way is irrelevant... The opinions of half of those who voted are irrelevant. Great!!! Its good to see how things work for you...

EDIT: To put your RP concerns at ease, I have known some FS players that were/are great RPers some are guild leaders as well. Xanfyrst, Greil, Aaron, Tirion. All their Characters were/are a pleasure to RP with. For you to throw their characters in the garbage is distasteful at the very least

[Kiran]

I have played a fvs since I got to the server, now I am level 27.

I for one know we are overpowered, however I know a lot of classes/players who are much stronger than me in turn.

I understand people want FVS nerfed, but.. I dont know, seems like there are bigger things to fix, rather than nerf why not focus positive, get them melee classes up to scratch etc?

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Because FS is so immensely beyond everything else. You could implement a nerf and it would remain as the best class on the server. Buffing 40 classes is a lot more work than nerfing one.

Melee will never be as powerful as casters, but if we can get it a bit closer than events won't be a series of terrible crap for non FS while the FS steamrolls everything while complaining about bordom.

[Kiran]

As I said, FVS are a power house, so are STR bards, Wisdom druid with shapechange etc.

Would rather the focus would be on all those classes personally, I dont mind the nerf at all as a fvs, we still going to kick ass I imagine, but would love to play a non caster myself some stage and not feel like a turd doing it.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Druids lack the DPS of FS, bards lack the staying power. While they are clearly powerful their capability isn't that far off from other casters. Think of it this way; on the power scale a wm/zerker and hipsters are around 4. Clerics, wizards, and such are 6. Druids/bards/DD's are at about 7. FS are full on 10. Now if they nerfed FS down to 9 or 8 content could be geared down to where more players can enjoy it. This is a lot easier to implement than the "buff everything else" strategy which, if the past is any indication, would take around 10 years to complete. So unless a few of us are secretly programmers who want to volunteer with the staff I say we go with the easier to implement fix at least until the long term project finishes.

[Garn Greymoon]

I don't understand all this vitriol going about FvS. Yes i play one, splashed into a nerfed PrC and I say it's ok.

Why is it bothering some of you folks so much? Is this coming down to the whole internet deal where you have to be better than another person? Leave it be - play the game and be happy. Come on guys, some of us are enjoying the game.

Have magic envy? Roll a magic user! Think about it...a fighter comparing with a person who can shake the ground and hurl fire out of the sky...

[thids]

I don't understand all this vitriol going about FvS. Yes i play one, splashed into a nerfed PrC and I say it's ok.

Why is it bothering some of you folks so much? Is this coming down to the whole internet deal where you have to be better than another person? Leave it be - play the game and be happy. Come on guys, some of us are enjoying the game.

Have magic envy? Roll a magic user! Think about it...a fighter comparing with a person who can shake the ground and hurl fire out of the sky...

No.

[AC81]

::cough:: Adjust rest timer ::cough::

[Aelcar]

Finally, some sort of points to discuss that isn't "FS is a big bad wolf!!" or other emotional issues:

Druids lack the DPS of FS, bards lack the staying power

You've got to be joking. Druids deal less dmg than FS, but they have offensive spells that FSs can never match because of attribute synergy. Bards have enough staying power to outlast anything in this game.

While they are clearly powerful their capability isn't that far off from other casters.

And neither is FS's. The difference you imagine isn't there.

Think of it this way; on the power scale a wm/zerker and hipsters are around 4. Clerics, wizards, and such are 6. Druids/bards/DD's are at about 7. FS are full on 10.

Definitely not so. "Hipsers" means nothing (hipser what?! SA rogue? Wizard? Monk?), Clerics and Wizards can be full casters or melees with very different performance ratio with respect to other archetypes, and if Paladin and Ranger are some 7s, Druids/Bards/DDs/Warlocks/Monks are around 8 to 9+ where the best FSs types are a 10.

Your perception is bi-dimensional, and your feelings cloud your judgement.

Now if they nerfed FS down to 9 or 8 content could be geared down to where more players can enjoy it.

Your idea of power level IS the status quo.

The only reason why FS is above the others, is that it's skill floor is very low, and needs no items to perform. That's all.

[Tsidkenu]

There was a poll before to change the server time speed, perhaps time to dig up that discussion again.

That is ready for implementation but it does not affect rest timers. What we're waiting on is a bugfix because it also increases the Quest timer to the same ratio. Unless ya'll want quests 1/month?