Developing the Underdark

[reylas]

Oh, and for the love of God... I beg you!

Try to add a signpost outside Gloura's that mentions city Laws and that one cannot hold weapons inside the city...

Today I met a newbie that played a Lolthite and she refused repeatedly to sheath her huge blade in the Bazaar when my wizard asked her to, because "she had no respect for the males" *facepalm*

Depends on what is counted as a weapon. I remember about 18 months ago a debate about a staff being only a walking stick, But in a fantasy setting, the people who walk around with a walking stick will normally be the most dangerous. I put it to you that if you are asking players to unequip their bows or blades, you would have more success with by removing the satff you carry.

[Eldebryn]

Oh, and for the love of God... I beg you!

Try to add a signpost outside Gloura's that mentions city Laws and that one cannot hold weapons inside the city...

Today I met a newbie that played a Lolthite and she refused repeatedly to sheath her huge blade in the Bazaar when my wizard asked her to, because "she had no respect for the males" *facepalm*

Depends on what is counted as a weapon. I remember about 18 months ago a debate about a staff being only a walking stick, But in a fantasy setting, the people who walk around with a walking stick will normally be the most dangerous. I put it to you that if you are asking players to unequip their bows or blades, you would have more success with by removing the satff you carry.

You forget one thing. Wizards rule Sshamath. Wizards are often physically weak and use staves to walk.

Ergo: Staves are an exception.

This was even clarified by the Charnag Maelthra when Eldebryn was new to Sshamath.
And it has nothing to do with being dangerous or not, rather how intimidating you look. Sshamath is a trading city and blades, bows and clubs can make merchants and simple non-adventurer citizens really nervous or afraid. The models used by wizards don't even look like combat staves, more like exquisite walking sticks.

EDIT: @ Rainbow, I think the sign is better for two reasons. a) It could draw more attention from newbies than one more NPC with generic name to whom most people won't bother talking to and b) I think that the sadistic nature of most drow would contradict offering such tips on local rules. Most would rather say nothing and enjoy watching the newcomers get imprisoned or pay a fine for violating those rules, and that's why I don't enjoy really enjoy having to inform others of these rules IC. It's also a fact that there are plenty of people in the UD that offer significant RP and IC presence that however do not use the forums regularly and do not know these local laws.

[Rainbow Prism]

Eldy, who said we need drow?

It can be a local NPC who is very bothered by lawless kids. Put a model which is likely to get attention. Like, lich. Or some type of undead. Actually, if we take undead, we can make it a programmed message that is looped to say to newcomers the laws and rules. Like live board. They ARE property in the city after all.

You say signs, but who will tell the details and way around the laws other than other character? I think using NPC is a must if you want to inform players without making it look too silly or *searching for not rude word* ...strange.

[TalonofWindspeak]

It gets tedious and even ridiculous RPing to those people running around with blades withdrawn. So often I want to just crash my staff over there heads, hehe... The odd time some good RP results but more than often it does not..

Usually I just say something like... "OOO... don't cut yourself with that.. sure you know how to use that thing?" Then an argument transpires as to what is and isn't legal.

Just the other day in fact someone told me it was perfectly legal to carry an open weapon because the guards wouldn't through you in jail like they do in Baldur's Gate... *facepalms* After the novelty of some of these encounters wears off it gets more like, run, run away....

It is the people that come in with some RL common sense or have done some research or perhaps actually played the original BG games that most likely will turn into something worthwhile. Didn't the original game have some kind of script if you have a weapon drawn? And another script would automatically take your helmet off (I think that was possibly NWN).

Most of this comes with people reading a bit of Lore online and coming into the game with preconceived idea that all Drow cities are so evil that you must have your weapon drawn and ready at all times to defend yourself!!

Perhaps an imp that teleports in and confiscates their weapon.. hmmm, now that would be interesting..

[Eldebryn]

Most of this comes with people reading a bit of Lore online and coming into the game with preconceived idea that all Drow cities are so evil that you must have your weapon drawn and ready at all times to defend yourself!!

I would bet that even in Menzoberranzan they don't run around with drawn weapons, it just doesn't make sense, not to mention it's tiring to hold a metal blade while casually walking... Regardless of whether drow authorities in each city are lenient or not, you simply wouldn't see people walking around with weapons. Not to mention that even know the RP-around these situations is very light.

A warrior in plate holding a greatsword inside Gloura's?! It's the equivalent of someone walking in a convenient store with a pistol in hand >.>

Perhaps an imp that teleports in and confiscates their weapon.. hmmm, now that would be interesting..

Lately I am seriously starting to think how an implementation of the surface guard script would be (excluding staves) in Sshamath. And the imps would be great candidates too . I don't really favour this type of enforcement though, especially in a neutral-chaotic drow city. I think we should wait some time to see whether the sign helps and if not consider such a script.

[Blackman D]

that script is broke and doesnt arrest people so...

[TalonofWindspeak]

that script is broke and doesnt arrest people so...

So what planet and time were they from?

Hmm the guards don't even say to sheath or put away your weapon? Haven't played much on the surface in a long time..

Well I always thought some kind of tutorial you have to go through to gain entrance to play. Probably a big hassle to create, not worth it..

I have heard mention of possibility of another Drow city in the works? One that is Lloth controlled? Maybe just a small outpost like Szith, have a Caravan that goes there, make some random encounter along the way depending on your level. Have seen these on other servers and of course SoZ OC hinged on these things.

Some people get disappointed in the RP experience in Sshamath, especially the Llothite ones.. You would have to build a temple in the city.. meanwhile I see one now in Sshamath and some RP starting up.. so that's good..

[Broham2]

Another city?!

I just don’t understand that thought process at all. Sshamath already got sewers before BG, even though they have been asked for since the very beginnings of this server.. and there are like a dozen, maybe 15 people across all timezones that play down there. And another city is needed?

Come oooooonnnn man.

Argh.

--

And yes, the guards still tell you that you are in violation of the law... evidently they just don't follow up on their boasts to arrest you. I havent tried lately.

[Molag__Bal]

The surface has BG, Roaring Shore, FAI, CK, Beregost, Nashkel, Gullykin and Doron Amar.

The underdark has Sshamath.

Guess why 90% of the players spend their time on the surface? Is it because players don't like the UD, or because the surface is way more developed?

There is a small group of people that Luna put together to try to improve the UD. We managed to steal tfunke away from the surface and he has pumped out half a dozen new areas in under two months! There are several more planned, if he doesn't get burned out first.

Hopefully players are appreciating these changes, and perhaps we'll get a few surface players defecting to the UD!

[TalonofWindspeak]

Another city?!

I just don’t understand that thought process at all. Sshamath already got sewers before BG, even though they have been asked for since the very beginnings of this server.. and there are like a dozen, maybe 15 people across all timezones that play down there. And another city is needed?

Come oooooonnnn man.

Argh.

--

And yes, the guards still tell you that you are in violation of the law... evidently they just don't follow up on their boasts to arrest you. I havent tried lately.

It is only one map.. hmm seems to me the surface has how many more maps? All I'm saying is having a Lloth city might encourage more people to stay. And yes, this has come up quite a bit.. and no its not some development competition between the UD and surface (could have said the same thing about Roaring Shore going in for the surface) ... I'm very glad of what has been done in just the last while for the UD.

[Eldebryn]

Personally, I have mentioned my reasons for not supporting another 'actual' city in UD numerous times, for the most part I don't think the population is enough to support it.

I am really glad that we have had the recent development though, I hope many people will have the chance to witness Sshamath's new majestic lights, sponsored by the school of Evokation (aka tfunke )

Rasael even uploaded some of what's new in the gallery section, if I get the chance I might get some from the darkwoods and the sewers/tombs as well.

[Broham2]

Yes, the surface has more maps. Yes, it has more players. Chicken and the egg, who knows I guess. I have been around (as many of you have) since the UD was put in. We've never been able to find enough DMs that are willing to devote themselves to the areas, the player base has always been sporadic (and the RP was sporadic too, sounds like that has improved).

I love the areas. I appreciate and respect the effort put into it and the way they've turned out has been amazing. But how much more return on investment would a 'small group + tfunke' get if they were cranking out and filling in the surface.

Its just my opinion yo. I've tried to play down there and lvl 14 is about as far as I got before I got bored and lonely.

Here is an alternative that I think would be sweet:

The Hilltop Ruins – Well – Gibberling cave is one of the coolest sets of maps on the server I think. Its cool because its not a down and back, it goes through. It changes up as you go, and it increases in difficulty, bringing you out a bit down the road.

How cool would that be to have similar options throughout the server? Very cool. How to do that?

Get rid of the UD, once and for all…

Now, now, I know that seems drastic and what not, but seriously. When a RL business is looking to improve its performance, it looks to the areas that aren’t making a profit and they cut their losses!

Since the UD has been created (aside from 2 player factions that were short lived) it’s not ‘turned a profit’, so to speak. The hours in development aren’t paid off by hours of player use. Unless the plan is to let those areas sit as-is without any future development, wouldn’t it be better to spend labor hours on areas that will be used?

Enter the ‘upper dark’ or ‘cavern system’ areas. I propose that we use the current UD maps as areas on the surface, perhaps linking areas such as the Cloakwood Mine with the Nashkel Mine, or the abandoned mine in the goblin area, for example. An entrance in the well by Jorn’s farm that comes out in the Hilltop ruins, or the bandit cave maybe.

I mean, we have dead end cave mouths in High Hedge and other places.. these could definitely fill in the gaps and make the surface more vibrant. I know there are a handful of players that would be extremely disappointed with the change, but there are dozens more that would benefit and be happy with all of the new places to explore.

As a consequence of this, but completely separate idea.. this would likely eliminate Drow as a playable race, and the Duergar and Deep Gnomes as well probably.. in return (and maybe not at first but eventually) for those missing races we could implement a few of the weaker “Races of Faerun’ Hak races such as Goblins, Kobold, Gnolls, etc. Half-Drow could certainly remain as they are known to the surface in rare numbers (and they aren’t cool enough or Power Buildy enough to become overly common). To house these new races, an Upperdark trade city could be placed somewhere among these various ‘new caverns’ (the repurposed UD areas).

I don't suspect that this thread will like that idea, lol. I dont expect it to happen. I do think it would be more efficient use of resources though.

I love the idea of the 'idea' of the UD, but it just seems like its a bridge to nowhere at this point. I hope these new areas go in and 6 months from now we arent right back at this conversation... and I hope I am proven wrong.

[Molag__Bal]

When I first joined this server the UD was doing quite well. It had decent DM presence, especially from Kelsfar. The lack of high level content wasn't that big a deal, because high level UD characters could access the portal connecting the Phaerlock Temple to Durlags Tower. The Bregan D'aerth, Charnag Maelthra and later House Mori'hyanda were quite active.

Then the DM presence began to decline significantly, and the portal was closed off isolating the UD from the surface. There were no viable high level UD areas for epic UD characters to hunt in. That is when I grew bored and started to play on the surface, as did many other people. mar3usmc came on board and started working on improvements in the UD, but they came slowly and the population continued to decline. The netherese ruins were made increasingly more difficult to keep UD characters from reaching the surface.

Then Dalelands started up and a huge portion of the UD players left BGTSCC to play there instead. Very few, if any, have come back. Hopefully some of them will come back if and when the UD here gets the improvements it needs, better DM support and less segregation from the rest of the server.

[TalonofWindspeak]

In talking directly with some of the DMs, I know some have questioned the UD viability, hell I question it.. but seems sad that it basically became a lessor stepchild of the server, perhaps it always was. At one time, like Molag said, it was doing quite well. Like any business once you loose consumer loyalty it can be nye impossible to get it back. There have been servers that were famous for their drow populations, RP and epic events, but once you see a big decline for whatever reason, it is almost guaranteed once people leave they move on to something else.. even WoW and Everquest..

But your probably right that splintering and fragmenting an already sparse population probably is not headed down the right path. But the same could be said for the whole server then, is it not getting rather large?

[Rasael]

S'shamath is (for now) intended as the only city and center of the UD areas, there's no point fragmenting the population but small trade encampments and other things can be added if someone builds them.
I think at one point Ched Nassad was going to get built but that's a huge undertaking and it would probably detract from the UD experience. In my mind the UD is intended as a Drow safe zone and not a completely seperate server unto itself.

Aside from that I think that recently the UD is quite active. It's usually a good 4th or 5th of the total player population which is bigger share by share than the amount of areas the UD has in comparison to the surface.

That's not to say that surface play is declining, I think people have multiple characters and want to play on both sides. That's cool - and there's also new stuff in the UD which attracts people. Plus it looks darned good and with some upocoming changes contention between UD and Surface could rise again.