Gladiators i salute you. (Continuing event and Open RP)

[Servin]

/// Sorry but this was by far the worst and most boring and annoying arena event yet.

/// First 3 minutes of every fight we've been experiencing an undisturbed lightshow of casting every possible buff on the person and there wasn't anything anyone could do to interrupt this.

/// Then there was a display of what I think was a huge range of custom DM items collected from various events

/// The monster in the meantime has gone for a ciggy break and stood idle only after which to encounter a near invincible contestant

/// At one point I wasn't sure if the match was rigged for a DM to pay a favour to the contestant and later overturned as too many negative tells were being sent or something else was going on...

/// My advice: Please do not promote anyone to the next levels, who have not come to the arena to fight.

[ZabelSword]

///Don't expect perfection every time man, this is a project in the works. I thought the DM did a good job narrarting given the lag and other circumstances. Let's try to keep any criticism strictly constructive in helping this series of events along. Keep up the good work DM Absolution, sorry I was late to the show at least I got to catch the last hour or so.

[DM_Absolution]

I can't but agree on some of your criticism Servin, this was quite painful to host as well.

1) Due to me having been too busy this past week i did not remember to ask for an assistant DM to help with with this event.

2) Spell caster takes a long time to buff, which can be problematic in many ways, but it is necessary though. Can't only allow Melee players now can i?

3) Alienor is nearly invincible, even without gear it seems.

4) Rigged? not a chance! But i was shocked to see just how tough Alienor was, even without gear.

One thing i have learned though is this.

1) I need an assistant for these events, they are far to time consuming and tough to lead otherwise

2) I DC almost every time i enter the Arena, does anyone else have that?

3) It is very hard to balance the mobs, especially when the player is not allowed to wear any items.

[Leo]

I wasn't present on the actual event but I did hear the shouts. Seemed like it was really hard DM-side. Hope it would be better the next time. And I wouldn't blame neither player nor DM if it wasn't overly interesting. It's just the way divine casters are. They can't fight any other way. If anything, I would applaud the player for minding the rules and not using all her strength until the last match. I was told that it was only then she used Epic Spell. She probably also wanted to make it interesting for the rest of the players. It's just that the build wasn't really suited for that.

[Servin]

/// I don't mind giving credit where it's due. I know the first time was just a start and the second took ages after the first event did.

/// I have no objections to the narrating nor dealing with the lag - I was not bothered by the delay at all. I have no complaints and absolutely understand the difficulty of hosting the event given the technical details and I turn a blind eye on that and I don't mention it anywhere in any of my critical posts. It happens - tough.

/// I would not allow anyone to challenge the champion who has put up a crap show. The area is there to entertain the viewers and that was a really a poor show and was close to having a leader of a major group in Sshamath to become an arena champion as well.

2) Spell caster takes a long time to buff, which can be problematic in many ways, but it is necessary though. Can't only allow Melee players now can i?

Well now... That's why cross-classes were allowed. If you don't have time to buff, before the opponent runs to you - you don't fit the arena and just die - simple as, build is not suited for it - bye. The arena is not meant to be for everyone, just like mages make poor sword fighters.

I totally disagree that you should try and please everyone who wants to compete in the arena. Don't be afraid to cast tons of dispells on the spot where the chanting is coming from. If it doesn't work, meteor swarms or hell balls, before they protect themselves from it.

The monsters waiting and asking if they are allowed to attack yet was the most disappointing bit of the whole event.

[DM_Absolution]

Maybe we should let casters buff before the battle instead?

[ZabelSword]

///We could just let people buff before the fight, that would certainly save some time since they are going to buff anyway during fight with ethereal visage. The spawns would then have a chance to dispell right away if they are able to do so. Also do not allow the person fighting in the arena to rest afterward, that way we have to pick and choose what buffs to chose and when.

[Servin]

Maybe we should let casters buff before the battle instead?

Still my question remains - why? This is all about making the contestant trying to outsmart their opponents, not the DM trying bend reality for them having a standing chance in combat.

How to play a mage in the arena:

- Mage wins initiative and turns invisible
- The opponent tries casting a buff of true seeing on themselves
- The mage dispells it
- Meanwhile the opponent tries running up to the contestant but he goes out of sight
- The mage know his opponent is a caster and luckily has prepared some spells for counterspelling
- The opponent tries to cast stuff again but is being countered
- The mage seeing no further spells are cast, decided to summon a monster to redirect attention from himself
- The opponent is forces to fend off the summon
- The mage casts some wards in the meantime
- ...
- ...
- The wit of the mage has prevailed, the opponent is dead, the crowd is cheerful because the mage was not warded in the beginning at all.

You don't need to make ultra-powered mobs for the arena to have everyone entertained! Quite the opposite. But if 4 times over you see someone turning godlike only to pwn stuff... Sorry - no.

If you lack the wit like the one described above in the arena you simply die.

So to answer the quoted question, I'd say - no.

[Leo]

I think Alienor should have won. It's not really fair to say that only those who can put up a good show can become a champion. If such strong character can't win against the current champion, what hope would an ordinary melee have? If she won, next time people would start thinking up strategies and ultimately she would fall to some magus who cast quickened Bigsby and got through the Spell Resistance or Rogue who danced in HIPS around her until her buffs ran out. There are no perfect builds.

[Thal]

(((I'm pretty sure she used some sort of greater sanctuary, Servin. The monsters can't attack while she buffs, it's not Abso who made them run around, it's the spell she had on her.

Besides, I had fun myself. Had some roleplay on our side. While the fights wern't the most fun to watch, the last one was better. And the NPCs were perfect, so I'll surely be there for the next round. )))

[Servin]

I think Alienor should have won. It's not really fair to say that only those who can put up a good show can become a champion. If such strong character can't win against the current champion, what hope would an ordinary melee have? If she won, next time people would start thinking up strategies and ultimately she would fall to some magus who cast quickened Bigsby and got through the Spell Resistance or Rogue who danced in HIPS around her until her buffs ran out. There are no perfect builds.

We're talking two different things. Fighting against the creatures and fighting against a champion. The difference is - if you allow a godlike character to become a champion and wish to implement changes to reflect what I've said earlier, the champion will always keep winning because he got nominated during the more lax rules.

The way I see a solution to this is the following:
Two types of fight:
Versus Monsters
Versus Champion

Before entering the arena you are:

Allowed To choose any spells you'd like in your spellbook.
Allowed Rest to have the spells ready.
Removed of all effects, wards, spells...

Each slightly different rules.

Versus Monsters option 1:
- You don't get to rest in between fights
- You are allowed any wards you still have available to you before the fight. Same applies to monsters.
- After you were victorious - the contestant is forced to click 'Remove Effects' button in the Player GUI, removing all spells and buffs from the character.

Versus Monsters option 2:
- You don't get to rest in between fights
- You are NOT allowed any wards you still have available to you before the fight. Instead you cast them as the fight begins. Same applies to monsters.
- After you were victorious - the contestant is forced to click 'Remove Effects' button in the Player GUI, removing all spells and buffs from the character.

** note: this means if you're a caster you will need to spend your spells wisely to survive. High level casters will have no problems with that anyway. **

Versus Champion both contestants v1:
- You rest before this fight
- You are allowed any wards you have available to you before the fight

Versus Champion both contestants v2:
- You rest before this fight
- You are NOT allowed any wards you have available to you before the fight

** This way the fight is even and fair as well as interesting **

This way we won't get to see gods fighting mortals in the arena and it will be more realistic. Plus there's the perseverance element that will make the whole thing more interesting.

[DM_Absolution]

Obviously we need to lay down some more rules on how some of the encounters should be handled, especially in the case of spell casters. I will give it some thought this upcoming week and see what can be done to improve it, any suggestions you can come with is welcome, and it can be discussed here.

The Arena is a work in progress, and it is a long way from being perfected. I am learning quite a bit every time. One thing i have definitely fixed for next time is to have an assistant DM to help with running some of the NPC, and a few other things. It was quite strenuous to run it all by myself.

Anyhow, just wanted to say that. Now keep on coming with suggestions.

[dean1986]

Thanks for the event although the greater sanctuary and 30mins of watching the champion buff was painful to say the least. Thanks for your work.

The arena looked great.

[Storm Munin]

About this event I must say I mainly enjoyed it.
Yes, it was very dull to watch rince and repeat spell casting.
But honestly the best thing about any arena fight is what go on beside it.
The worst possibly was the selection of first opponents in my toons view, then again it was a brilliant selection by the master of the pits in a city trying to free itself from a Lolthite ruled past. I am not convinced there werent other hands at play there... anyway.

What happens upon the arena is just mechanics.

What happens around the arena is immersion and roleplaying.


So..

Im most disappointed with the crowd watching and betting dispersing around the arena in very scattered pockets of toons.
Admittedly this is to be expected because of.. differences..
But still, if we want action at the arena we do need vendors, pick pockets, black market ticket operations (no doubt orchestrated by the master of the pit himself) and so on.
Yet, the games will not truly become alive unless interactions happen on a larger scale.
The arena after all is a place where deals will be struck or lost and opponents will take measure of each other.
A place where champions fight to die in the glory of their masters.

The gladiators are the sideshow really.


Which brings us to:

Faction leaders trying to become an arena champion or even gladiatoring?
Really?
Why, what would move them to such a desperate act of revealing their strength and weaknessess while also risking ridicule if failing badly?

Sure, Seat Ilphryssin could benefit from winning a bout or two. But a Seat loosing or even bleeding like a commoner?
What impact and ramifications would that have?
Isnt it in essence the same for all of those playing the game of politics and power mongering at large?
Lilith may be a crazy bastard but arena fighting?
No way, the citizens and residents of Sshamath exist to entertain her, not the other way around.


Because of another event I unfortunaly could not see the last two bouts but the temple surely salutes Alienor for filling its coffers by her own sweat and blood.
No doubt Lolth is pleased.


YMMV

Edit: .. and the arena looks great.

[Ardul]

// Hi DM,

thank you for organizing this event. I am new to the server but I know how much time and efford it needs to organize it (I was GM on a WoW private server). I participated as spectator and watched all fights. Perhaps you will follow my advice:

As everyone would agree: Because of the variation of possible class combinations etc. in DnD / NwN it should be clear that there is no balance between classes in pvp; some builds are just made for pvp, others are for pve or for other purposes. Because of this it is realistic that fights can get very unequal, regardless of it is vs some other player or vs a monster.

As a consequence you should really keep things simple; otherwise there are a thousand possibilties (and perhaps bug abuses) which would make these matches too sophisticated and a hell in balancing. So simply make a few clear rules for an arena match:
- No magic, potions, buffs, poisons, etc.
- Arena gear and weapons which can be choosen from a variety, but must be used. Perhaps a bow/x-bow can be used aswell.
- hiding(?) your decision. Give monsters uncanny dodge in the case that you dont want to see so many sneak attacks.

Yes, i know every caster class will have huge disadvantages with such rules but what mage would seriously condescend himself to be part of such a primitive massacre anyways? (we know he will win, see servins post above; its exaclty how you will own as mage if you let magic be part of it)

But this isnt something made for every class, but made for certain specialists to entertain the crowd. And the arena champion can be just such a specialist, made for this reason (somehow an 'optimal' build). If you would allow each and every bogus build to cast off his abilities, then we would have WoW conditions... and a whole science around balancing, which i really wont recommend. Let the people make special builds for just the purpose of being an arena fighter. By going this way you also don't have to adjust the monster attributs and abilities to overpowerd numbers and can stick to the aviable monsters (which is also more immersive in my opinion). They will be hard when using 'crappy' gear and no magic, so more than one player may be involved, maybe one has to kite while the other shoot etc...

Another idea is to let the arena stay open so that people can make pvp matches for themselves. By this they have a place where they can try out everything, but its not official.

Thanks again for the entertaining mod (had alot rp) xd Ardul.