Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Your saying a Paladin has never used hanging to exact justice wherein the gate is common practice?

Hitman Hard wrote:Your saying a Paladin has never used hanging to exact justice wherein the gate is common practice?

Your argument suggests that Good-aligned characters can't remain good-aligned because the world doesn't support it. Thus, paladins wouldn't exist if that is the case.

Fact is though, that the world is not like Warhammer. It's not dark and devoid of hope, where "Good" is simply the lesser evil.

Paladins are civilised people that aim to always choose the most right, most just and most good solution to every problem, without compromising any of the things they stand for. If they did, they would fall.

And a paladin beheads criminals who have committed a mortal sin. Hanging is not part of their repertoire.

No i'm saying many good aligned characters resort to hanging.

A proper hanging is supposed to instantly kill the person being hanged. The rope is made individually at the correct length and fitted to snap the person's neck when the stage is released and the rope falls and goes taught.

There is even a bag placed over the 'person to be hanged' neck to further enhance the effect of making them loose all sense of place and time and increase the chance that they die instantly before they realize or feel that their neck has been snapped.

Any malfunction of any of these procedures would be the case of the rope not being made or fitted properly, or some other deviation in the procedure.

I always felt the problem we run into with good and evil in forgotten realms is that it is so often black and white. But since we live in a very gray area thinking world it can be hard to think that way.

Deathgrowl wrote:The spell Animate Dead is evil, no matter your intentions.

This is a perfect example.

You can have a lawful good sorcerer who has never committed a single evil act, who finds a cache of Animate dead scrolls while adventuring in the caverns of a necromantic cult. If his entire party is defeated and this sorcerer uses those scrolls to get the bodies of his friends to a cleric, or to complete the good deed of stopping the evil cult, if he raises the body of a bunny rabbit to cheer up a crying little girl on his way home it is an evil act per the rules of the world. It doesn't matter if using animate dead would save the world and not using it would destroy it. It is still an evil act to use that spell for any reason.

As DMs we have creative freedoms of course to bend those rules because I'm sure everyone could come up with half a dozen reasons that animate dead would be useful for a good aligned character. And of course the age old "what if I had to do ______ to save someone's life." Falls into the same area because sacrificing your "soul" for someone else is a selfless and generally good act.

I feel a lot of these what if situation is why the rule book is so black and white about certain things. So When in doubt I always look at the rules. As DMmouse pointed out, there is no evil tag on the vampiric abilities, whether on weapons or cast. So then it is not inherently evil to use them.

Social constrains are something else entirely, If vampiric abilities are considered evil by the people you are around then a paladin may not use them just to conform to what is seen as good, and I would think that some paladins would do such a thing because they are not just evil smiters but also beacons that goodly people can aspire to. If the people think black armor is evil, and the paladin walks around with black armor, the paladin may not have the light spreading effect she wished. Perhaps the paladin just grew up with the idea that vampiric weapons are evil, or untrustworthy. But considering even the most novice paladin can detect evil at will I do not see this being a good reason for long.

Lokki wrote:f his entire party is defeated and this sorcerer uses those scrolls to get the bodies of his friends to a cleric, or to complete the good deed of stopping the evil cult, if he raises the body of a bunny rabbit to cheer up a crying little girl on his way home it is an evil act per the rules of the world.

Raising your friends as undead abominations, or trying to entertain a child with a zombie rabbit sound like actions that would have you well on the way to evil to me.

Being raised as undead can corrupt the soul and body.. hence making resurrection harder.

Zombies and Skeletons are mindless, souless undead however. This means you literally reanimate the body with negative energy, there is no tampering of souls or whatever.
But of course it's inherently evil because there's an evil descriptor next to it, because the gods of black and white morality decreed it so, and no matter what use you give those undead it's still evil, despite the fact you used them to save a thousand of souls or something. Frankly, the whole black and white morality of D&D, the Realms in particular, is oh so filled with inconsistencies, the price to pay for having such an extreme and unrealistic system. Thankfully, DMs can always bend those abomination of rules, depending on what kind of fluff and setting you want.
As per Savage Species for example, one can become a Lich and not change his alignment to evil. The Book of Vile Darkness and Exalted Deeds on the other hands are prime examples of extremist and fanatical as hell views on both sides, very fitting for what the books are supposed to be and represent.

Err...

Alignments are never set in stone.

They fluctuate. You may get evil points, but you can also get good points otherwise. Alignment rarely changes instantly..

Most complaints about the system can be solved with the above arguement in my opinion.

Alignment can change instantly from Good to Evil or Neutral to Evil in certain cases.

If you slay a paladin that you know is a paladin... that's instant evil as you're killing the paragon of everything that is good.

Some vicious acts can also send you flying to evil-land in an instant, such as brutally murdering children, chopping their limbs off while they're still alive and then watch them die from loss of blood.

Sorry, but it all depends on context. They bring up the issue of Paladins fighting Paladins in the books that have to do with them. It's not an evil act depending on the context.

Okay, so, are we done discussing how Vampiric Regeneration and Paladins work together? You guys can discuss everything else that's off-topic in a different thread. The Lock Thread button is calling to me.

I should have chosen a different word. How about murdering?

Anyway, I have a related question to the subject being discussed in OP. Or, it was actually the question of a friend of mine:

Paladin and elemental damage on weapons? What if we say that a paladin is using a weapon with acid damage on it? Would that be fine? It's not an evil thing, but it does hurt a lot. I mean... each hit is not only leaving a wound, but is also burning away some additional flesh/skin which causes tremendous pain. Fire also burns and might spread to any cloth nearby. Lightning shocks and can leave burn-marks and serious heart and nerve problems. Sonic can make bones brittle and shatter organs. Cold can cause serious frostbite.

Stealing the life force of another living creature to keep you alive is evil no matter how you look at it. The name itself is "Vampiric" and suggests vampirisim. Natural or not is not the question what was asked.

You can delve in to it as much as you want and create any number of variables to justify the use of a vampiric weapon however the act of stealing life to feed your own is evil.

Wolfrayne wrote:Stealing the life force of another living creature to keep you alive is evil no matter how you look at it. The name itself is "Vampiric" and suggests vampirisim. Natural or not is not the question what was asked.

You can delve in to it as much as you want and create any number of variables to justify the use of a vampiric weapon however the act of stealing life to feed your own is evil.

did you read below cos i dont think so...

In Tabletop both the spell Vampiric Touch and the Vampiric weapon property do not cause Negative Energy Damage. That's right. There's no evil connotations there.

Vampiric Touch (used to create the Vampiric weapon property) deals an undefined damage type as it simply transfers hitpoints. There is no Evil descriptor, there is no DEATH descriptor (that means in tabletop even a Deathward will not block it, nor will Damage Reduction, nothing at all can mitigate the damage if it's successfully inflicted), and it's a flat siphon. Your hitpoints are now mine.

But no matter what you say there's zero evil inherently involved with any of the properties. A gaping fanged mouth on your weapon that eats enemies isn't evil, it's scary, like a lion. Scary like a lion trying to eat you.

Xanfyrst wrote:I should have chosen a different word. How about murdering?

Anyway, I have a related question to the subject being discussed in OP. Or, it was actually the question of a friend of mine:

Paladin and elemental damage on weapons? What if we say that a paladin is using a weapon with acid damage on it? Would that be fine? It's not an evil thing, but it does hurt a lot. I mean... each hit is not only leaving a wound, but is also burning away some additional flesh/skin which causes tremendous pain. Fire also burns and might spread to any cloth nearby. Lightning shocks and can leave burn-marks and serious heart and nerve problems. Sonic can make bones brittle and shatter organs. Cold can cause serious frostbite.

Wow, this is getting ridiculous! May Paladins use a weapon at all? Will be the next question. Earnestly: Paladins aren't paragons of the highest morale. They first are guardians of the church and their CREDO. Even a peaceful credo would require self defense from time to time. And in a world where "dog eat dog" is very much alive, it should really be no question at all, if a Paladin may use a weapon with elemental damage or not. Or next thing is, they might not even carry a torch, as it may burn down things?

/// Sorry for the rant, still sleep deprived I blame Nilbog...

Wolfrayne wrote:Stealing the life force of another living creature to keep you alive is evil no matter how you look at it. The name itself is "Vampiric" and suggests vampirisim. Natural or not is not the question what was asked.

You can delve in to it as much as you want and create any number of variables to justify the use of a vampiric weapon however the act of stealing life to feed your own is evil.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but try not to argue with DMs .