Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

I don't understand why this rule exists for drow in a place where gray orcs can be played without restriction. It's a lot more jarring to see every gray orc around protected by OOC rules which force almost everyone to break character when interacting with them than seeing the odd drow that made its way to the surface sneaking around.

This may have been brought up before, but: The words of Ed Greenwood himself:
http://www.eilistraee.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=410

22% of all drow worship Eilistraee.

10-15% of all drow worship only Eilistraee.

That should cease all discussion whether Eilistraeens are extremely rare or quite common. It won't, of course. People just don't want drow not to be inherently evil. But there it is.

Actually,

Aelcar wrote:ON THE NATURE OF THE DROW:

"Bards sing of bold heroes who brave the depths of the earth, who plunder the vaults of ancient peoples, exploring and mapping the endless passages and corridors that honeycomb the Underdark. Although much of this lightless world is empty and devoid of life, it contains terrifying monsters, sprawling alien civilizations, swathes of molds, oozes, slimes, and countless other hazards. But no threat the Underdark conjures compares to the drow. Their name
is a curse, their presence a cancer. They are the despised, the exiled, the shunned—and yet they are powerful, and conquer nearly all who come before them. They are the dark elves, cursed by Corellon Larethian, condemned to spend their days languishing in their own corruption."

FROM "DROW OF THE UNDERDARK", INTRODUCTION.

- The Drow are evil. It's an intrinsic part of them, their nature.
- Good Drow qualify as "snowflakes" for rarity, and are considered an abomination by their kin. Therefore, we are talking about a difficult RP, ripe with hostility on all sides.
- The Drow RP is based on IC conflict. It requires mature players. Please, familiarize yourselves with the lore as soon as possible (BEFORE creating one would be ideal, but not always possible) in order to be able to respect the setting.

THIS should end all discussion about it.

Ed Greenwood is a writer, and needs stories. THIS is canon lore from the main source on the Drow, and the way BGTSCC has been run so far...just saying...

Ed Greenwoods words are canon unless contradicted: this was part of his agreement with TSR and now with Wizards. Ed Greenwood was also author of the 2nd ed Drow of the Underdark. He knows of what he speaks, and is writer of sourcebooks and this RPG setting we play in.

Aelcar, you are citing fluff text there. It would be better to provide something concrete to remove your own interpretation from it.

There is a codicil to Ed Greenwood's numbers, in that he clarifies whether he meant sole ellistraee followers are 10-15% of the whole, or of the 22% follow ellistraee as one god among several (standard in forgotten realms to pray to multiple gods, drow no exception even if they do so quietly). I believe it was the latter. He also said they were predominantly surface dwelling

This would mean we have a range of 2.2% - 3.3% of drow solely following ellistraee, mostly composed of clerics. There will be more associated to the faith proper who also pray to other gods (sole worship being rare as already discussed).

Thus, say, for the 12000 ish drow in Shamath there would be:
- just under 2500 who venerate ellistraee in some way
- approximately 350 who solely worship ellistraee and many of whom dwell on the surface
- an unknown number of group one that is a lay part of group two

Small but appreciable numbers (on the lowest interpretation of ed greenwoods figures)

Inherently tainted and finding being anything other than evil hard? Yes, that is intrinsic in Ellistraee herself, so even the 'goodest' drow would be that. (I would agree no hugs please) Taught from the earliest age to be evil? Yes, certainly. Inherently evil in the same way as a fiend? No way. We are talking much closer to tieflings, but in a society which brings out and mandates the very worst of its participants


For me that makes the rp of all interactions much more interesting. Twisted black hearts with (slightly restricted) free will chained is much more interesting than moustache twirling villains. And in practical rp terms the rp is the same, other than not invalidating ellistraee (who is lore)

These are not quite Greyhawk drow

The Drow in Sshamath are 32.000, not 12.000.

My interpretation is quite important, since I ran the Underdark for one metaplot (by myself) and a half (under Void).

Ed Greenwood's pindaric flights arent our concern, here: we have lore (take Drow of the Underdark as a whole) and SERVER lore based on that.

You're welcome to apply to DM the UD and steer it into a complete different direction, if the staff agrees with you. Which is not the status quo today.

All the server lore, and the UD/Surface interaction rules must be viewed in the light of what I write here, because that's how they came to be. This is the vision. It's obvious that when people are oblivious to this, certain kind of misunderstandings happen.

Also, the curse of Corellon isnt "fluff staff". It's the very reason Drow even exist.

It looks like "lore of the land" section needs a little update sanctioned by DMs so that everyone is on the same page.

Drow of the Underdark is a Core source book, Aelcar, not Forgotten Realms specific. Setting rules override.

Deathgrowl wrote:Drow of the Underdark is a Core source book, Aelcar, not Forgotten Realms specific. Setting rules override.

Which setting rules? You mean the Server Lore that people like Void, me and Asgorath (among others) made?

Normandy wrote:I don't understand why this rule exists for drow in a place where gray orcs can be played without restriction. It's a lot more jarring to see every gray orc around protected by OOC rules which force almost everyone to break character when interacting with them than seeing the odd drow that made its way to the surface sneaking around.

Give the staff a bit of time, they are working on this.

The answer is: the Drow have a place to stay. The Grey Orcs do not, at present. But they will! Just have a little patience and faith until then

Aelcar wrote:

Deathgrowl wrote:Drow of the Underdark is a Core source book, Aelcar, not Forgotten Realms specific. Setting rules override.

Which setting rules? You mean the Server Lore that people like Void, me and Asgorath (among others) made?

Forgotten Realms setting rules. You haven't made the setting rules, you have played one character and DMed one city in the Underdark. This doesn't dictate how the rest of Faerûn is. The Ardeep forest has Eilistraeens. There are other forests in Faerûn that has Eilistraeen groves. There's the Promenade. There's Qilue herself, who is almost 700 years old and has been a Chosen of both Eilistraee and Mystra for her entire life (she is a snowflake, I grant, but not because she's Eilistraeen - it's because she's a Chosen). There is the lore about the "Run". Every year they organize a great hunt. They come to the surface relatively often... I mean there's loads of lore that contradicts what you're claiming here. For all these things to work, there has to be a relatively substantial amount of Eilistraeens.

Why is it that you are so adamant that virtually all drow are evil? Do you just not like the lore that says otherwise?

Aelcar, if you changed core lore as a DM...it needs to be changed back IMO.

Yes, server events can change perception of things. (Eg massive hatred of orcs appropriate in baldurs gate even though they are just one race among many barbarous races in this part of the coast) - that is appropriate

If I understand you right, what you are saying here is that during your tenure as a DM you changed/ promoted server specific 'base' drow lore that changed what they are from FR basic, to make them all inherently evil no matter what. Is that right?

Rather than just rping the vast vast majority of drow as evil and horrific in character. Something we all agree on. There being no requirement to change the lore as you say the server has for any of the IG events which have occurred to have occurred

Am I misunderstanding? If so that this is a deviation from FR lore should be made clear. As people come here to play in an FR setting and setting lore is the common rule we all play by.

Deathgrowl wrote:
Why is it that you are so adamant that virtually all drow are evil? Do you just not like the lore that says otherwise?

No, I probably wasnt clear: this is OUR place. I am not talking about Dalelands here, lol. You're correct in everything you said in the post: one city, one place. Sshamath. Drow are definitely evil beasts in general, and those in Sshamath qualify.

If so that this is a deviation from FR lore should be made clear. As people come here to play in an FR setting and setting lore is the common rule we all play by.

There is no deviation from Faerun Lore. Sshamath is an evil city, full of evil Drow. The Eiliastreens are allowed as player characters, and I conducted events for them myself. But this "flower power" in our setting is nowhere to be seen.

I am here to try to clarify why certain rules are in place, and why certain reactions are appropriate.

What is the core lore that has been changed, LOLOLOL??

Well I am finding it hard to understand what your position is now Aelcar, so perhaps let me try and narrow down the issues. In your view, on Baldurs Gate:
1) are drow:
- inherently evil in their very core, akin to beings of the lower planes;or
- possessed of an inclination to evil (as is the case with tieflings, but perhaps stronger) which their society forces them to embrace?
2) is the FR lore for ellistraee worshipper numbers and worship as quoted above
- valid
- not valid


These are the specific issues we are discussing I think (how ellistraee and non evil drow are played is another issue entirely; as is rp reactions to drow - i suspect we are not far apart on those)

Fair enough, I will clarify as well:

The most sacred place of the Eilistraeens is the Dancing Dell and the Ladystone in the Ardeep forest. This is on the Sword Coast and very barely outside of the server borders. And the largest concentration of Eilistraeens is directly underneath Waterdeep. For reference:



You see? In this area, eilistraeen surface drow are more likely than anywhere else. It is juuuuuuust outside of our border. See the Misty Forest, there? That's where our border goes. Yep. Yep yep yep yep.

kleomenes wrote:Well I am finding it hard to understand what your position is now Aelcar, so perhaps let me try and narrow down the issues. In your view, on Baldurs Gate:
1) are drow:
- inherently evil in their very core, akin to beings of the lower planes;or
- possessed of an inclination to evil (as is the case with tieflings, but perhaps stronger) which their society forces them to embrace?
2) is the FR lore for ellistraee worshipper numbers and worship as quoted above
- valid
- not valid


These are the specific issues we are discussing I think (how ellistraee and non evil drow are played is another issue entirely; as is rp reactions to drow - i suspect we are not far apart on those)

Mah, idk Kleomenes: the topic is called GOOD DROW ON THE SURFACE. It looks like the rp reactions to Drow is KINDA important. Since it's been object of debate, and an immense amount of incorrect information has been spread, I thought it was the time to confront it, and clear the misunderstandings. I am glad we are not far apart on that.

Let's answer the points you hold dear! They are important, so it's also fairly useful to do so:

1) The Drow have evil ways. THE DROW IN SSHAMATH ARE NO EXCEPTION. Sshamath is NOT the UD's version of BG.
The fittest example are not the devils/demons (too much), nor the tieflings (too mild): the Melniboneans, which were no doubt a source of inspiration, are the closest match. If you read Moorcock you know what I'm talking about.
I'd say a practically irresistible inclination to evil, fed by their society. It's the way their mothers conceive them (since the pregnancy, where one of two kills the other to survive), the way they are raised (families exterminate each other, even from within), the way they advance in ranks. EVEN IN SSHAMATH. This is Lore.

2) The numbers of Eiliastreen in lore VARY much. For instance, at present the religion is basically unknown, so no, they would probably be much lower. But it's irrelevant, because we dont really care about FAERUN: we care about SSHAMATH. In SSHAMATH, religions are viewed very badly. Three people meeting in the name of a divinity usually disappear. The Conclave hates religion, and they keep a lolthite presence because otherwise their trade relationships with other Drow settlements would be endangered. "Good" Drow are to their kin what psychopatic serial killers are to us.

I dont concern myself with the +10% eiliastreen in Dalelands, or with WHEN that happens, or with when they are transformed in DARK ELVES and cease to be Drow. Not our problem.

I hope I clarified!