Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

No, it cannot become a citizen without claiming the race drow.

It can however become a resident in the city.


At least that is how I understand the server lore section.

Storm Munin wrote:No, it cannot become a citizen without claiming the race drow.

It can however become a resident in the city.


At least that is how I understand the server lore section.

Yes. It's correct.

Being a resident in such circumstances is also extremely risky, so beware. These kind of inhabitants have a high mortality/disappearance rate, and nobody cares.

Storm Munin wrote:No, it cannot become a citizen without claiming the race drow.

It can however become a resident in the city.


At least that is how I understand the server lore section.

That's what I meant actually. Thank you for the correction, I'll edit it in

mireigi wrote:So if a surfacer is brought to the city, reasons for this can be numerous, held captive and possibly tortured (FTB) until they agree to enter the service of their captor for a length of time in exchange for their eventual freedom, then that would be possible and allowed as well as granting them the right to stay within the city during their servitude, but only as a resident?

No. Only duergars can enter into indentured servitude as per the current rules.

Furthermore, it's impossible for a PC who's either a residence or a citizen of Sshamath to own any other slaves than Orcs or Tanarukks.

Visitors can hold slaves, but should be very careful about acquiring more during their stay. All it takes is one citizen saying "Hey, I know him, he's been known to do business here" and you're in deep trouble. Whether it's true or not, so this could be an excellent opportunity if you've created any enemies, for them to make some fuss for you.


Never seen or heard of those rules being enforced in game, but I don't spend a lot of time down there so that might explain why

Subject: Sshamath and slavery RP Guidelines.

raetin wrote:In response to confusion and questions regarding slavery in Sshamath, the staff has come up with a set of RP guidelines regarding how slavery operates in this particular city.

---

The Tone:
Sshamath is a merchant city. Frequent attacks by slavers on merchants, the gainfully employed, etc. — even if non-drow — will not be tolerated. The Conclave rules Sshamath with an iron fist, and very much care about the enforcement of the laws they set forth.

While slavery is a major part of Sshamath's society, the city restricts it in several important ways.

The Specific Clarifications:

• Citizens and residents of Sshamath may not own PC slaves, with the exception of Orcs and Tanarukks.
• Duergar may be indentured servants. These are the slave of their families on loan to whomever bought their services for a specified amount of time.
• Visitors can hold slaves of any race. Being a visitor, however, may place one at a disadvantage. The Conclave and those that work for them tend to favor citizens and residents above visitors — though drow are always favored over non-drow. (In the future, visitors will be required to spawn in a location other than Sshamath.)
• Capturing a slave near Sshamath's territory and bringing them into the city is a risky game. One could face harsh punishment if alleged to be disturbing the city's business or disrespecting the Conclave's authority. For example, a resident vouching for a business relationship of any kind with the newly captured slave would create serious problems for the supposed master.
• Slaves or indentured servants with at least one level of Wizard who demonstrate their abilities to a guard of Sshamath are automatically freed, protected by Sshamath, and may not be enslaved under any circumstances.
• Players who do not wish to play a slave may never be forced to do so.

Aelcar wrote:Let's try and clarify this, since we're at it:

"Noncitizens
While the drow of Sshamath hold themselves above all other races, they do cede a modicum of respect to races capable of true wizardry. As such, slaves include only those races deemed incapable of manipulating wizardly magic, such as chitines, goblins, grimlocks, minotaurs, and ogres. Members of these and similar races who can use arcane magic are seen as anomalies or trick ponies rather than indications of wizardly ability for the race. Notable races excluded from slavery (except as slaves of visitors) include elves, humans, svirfneblin, and deep Imaskari. Constructs, conjured creatures, and controlled undead are considered objects, even when capable of wizardry, and have no rights. Races capable of wizardry who reach Sshamath of their own accord as free-willed beings have the right to remain within the city for as long as they obey its laws and conduct ongoing business with residents. Actual citizenship is never granted to nondrow, though permanent residency is allowed so long as business is conducted as mentioned above. This second-class 'ghetto' of humans and Deep Imaskari is never allowed to grow large, but the city recognizes the value of these noncitizens as scapegoats or sacrificial lambs.

NOTE: Bards, sorcerers, and the practioners of divine magic are also considered to be of second-class status, though drow of these classes may be actual citizens within the City of Dark Weavings all the same. The dark elves of Sshamath view power that occurs naturally or because of service to another creature as inferior to power won through personal achievement."

This is a pretty accurate picture of what Void was hinting at throughout the thread.

So I'm assuming one would have to study a sorcerer to some degree to find out he's actually a sorcerer. They cast magic with the same components and what not so no one could tell until he stopped to rest and no one saw him reading his spellbook to prepare. Why do they particularly care how arcane magic is produced, do they just prize higher intelligence? It'd be nice to see this distinction explained further. My sorc would claim to be a wizard if she knew the advantages. A simple demonstration by casting a spell, and maybe a borrowed (or stolen whatever ) spellbook for disguise sake, should be enough to make most not even question right?

ohboy007 wrote:

Aelcar wrote:Let's try and clarify this, since we're at it:

"Noncitizens
While the drow of Sshamath hold themselves above all other races, they do cede a modicum of respect to races capable of true wizardry. As such, slaves include only those races deemed incapable of manipulating wizardly magic, such as chitines, goblins, grimlocks, minotaurs, and ogres. Members of these and similar races who can use arcane magic are seen as anomalies or trick ponies rather than indications of wizardly ability for the race. Notable races excluded from slavery (except as slaves of visitors) include elves, humans, svirfneblin, and deep Imaskari. Constructs, conjured creatures, and controlled undead are considered objects, even when capable of wizardry, and have no rights. Races capable of wizardry who reach Sshamath of their own accord as free-willed beings have the right to remain within the city for as long as they obey its laws and conduct ongoing business with residents. Actual citizenship is never granted to nondrow, though permanent residency is allowed so long as business is conducted as mentioned above. This second-class 'ghetto' of humans and Deep Imaskari is never allowed to grow large, but the city recognizes the value of these noncitizens as scapegoats or sacrificial lambs.

NOTE: Bards, sorcerers, and the practioners of divine magic are also considered to be of second-class status, though drow of these classes may be actual citizens within the City of Dark Weavings all the same. The dark elves of Sshamath view power that occurs naturally or because of service to another creature as inferior to power won through personal achievement."

This is a pretty accurate picture of what Void was hinting at throughout the thread.

So I'm assuming one would have to study a sorcerer to some degree to find out he's actually a sorcerer. They cast magic with the same components and what not so no one could tell until he stopped to rest and no one saw him reading his spellbook to prepare. Why do they particularly care how arcane magic is produced, do they just prize higher intelligence? It'd be nice to see this distinction explained further. My sorc would claim to be a wizard if she knew the advantages. A simple demonstration by casting a spell, and maybe a borrowed (or stolen whatever ) spellbook for disguise sake, should be enough to make most not even question right?

Ah, man, but your sorcerer is a human, yes? In that case, they will not care too much whether you are a wizard or a sorcerer: you will not be enslaved. From that point on, you are allowed to stay as long as you are worth it, and as long as nobody is annoyed (but keep in mind, CE people are not exactly stable...). So, if you see a good reason to pretend you are a wizard (example: there's a job a foreign wizard could obtain, but not a sorc. However, you're skilled enough you are confident you can deliver), go for it, but it's not strictly needed.

The official explanation about the superior standing of Wizards is: "personal accomplishments are valued more than innate abilities". Most likely, the truth is...when you have ELEVEN WIZARDS, all Drow and all Evil in the Conclave, it stands to reason they're a little biased (the eternal "Quara-Sand" debate all over again).

Aelcar wrote:

ohboy007 wrote:

Aelcar wrote:Let's try and clarify this, since we're at it:

"Noncitizens
While the drow of Sshamath hold themselves above all other races, they do cede a modicum of respect to races capable of true wizardry. As such, slaves include only those races deemed incapable of manipulating wizardly magic, such as chitines, goblins, grimlocks, minotaurs, and ogres. Members of these and similar races who can use arcane magic are seen as anomalies or trick ponies rather than indications of wizardly ability for the race. Notable races excluded from slavery (except as slaves of visitors) include elves, humans, svirfneblin, and deep Imaskari. Constructs, conjured creatures, and controlled undead are considered objects, even when capable of wizardry, and have no rights. Races capable of wizardry who reach Sshamath of their own accord as free-willed beings have the right to remain within the city for as long as they obey its laws and conduct ongoing business with residents. Actual citizenship is never granted to nondrow, though permanent residency is allowed so long as business is conducted as mentioned above. This second-class 'ghetto' of humans and Deep Imaskari is never allowed to grow large, but the city recognizes the value of these noncitizens as scapegoats or sacrificial lambs.

NOTE: Bards, sorcerers, and the practioners of divine magic are also considered to be of second-class status, though drow of these classes may be actual citizens within the City of Dark Weavings all the same. The dark elves of Sshamath view power that occurs naturally or because of service to another creature as inferior to power won through personal achievement."

This is a pretty accurate picture of what Void was hinting at throughout the thread.

So I'm assuming one would have to study a sorcerer to some degree to find out he's actually a sorcerer. They cast magic with the same components and what not so no one could tell until he stopped to rest and no one saw him reading his spellbook to prepare. Why do they particularly care how arcane magic is produced, do they just prize higher intelligence? It'd be nice to see this distinction explained further. My sorc would claim to be a wizard if she knew the advantages. A simple demonstration by casting a spell, and maybe a borrowed (or stolen whatever ) spellbook for disguise sake, should be enough to make most not even question right?

Ah, man, but your sorcerer is a human, yes? In that case, they will not care too much whether you are a wizard or a sorcerer: you will not be enslaved. From that point on, you are allowed to stay as long as you are worth it, and as long as nobody is annoyed (but keep in mind, CE people are not exactly stable...). So, if you see a good reason to pretend you are a wizard (example: there's a job a foreign wizard could obtain, but not a sorc. However, you're skilled enough you are confident you can deliver), go for it, but it's not strictly needed.

The official explanation about the superior standing of Wizards is: "personal accomplishments are valued more than innate abilities". Most likely, the truth is...when you have ELEVEN WIZARDS, all Drow and all Evil in the Conclave, it stands to reason they're a little biased (the eternal "Quara-Sand" debate all over again).

Thanks for the recap bud. I always loved the Sand vs Quara epic spats.

Aelcar wrote:Races capable of wizardry who reach Sshamath of their own accord as free-willed beings have the right to remain within the city for as long as they obey its laws and conduct ongoing business with residents. Actual citizenship is never granted to nondrow, though permanent residency is allowed so long as business is conducted as mentioned above.

The above seems to contradict a lot with what Novus wrote in another topic:
Subject: UD/Surface

DM Novus wrote:The same essentially applies to Surfacers that go into the Underdark. The DM Team has witnessed COUNTLESS acts of misbehavior and realistic/immersion breaking behavior, and each time it happens and when we have the option to address it as DMs, we do. Many Surface PCs seem to think that just because their powers allow them to travel to the Underdark, and that the Underdark is low on Player Character population, that somehow it is appropriate and safe for the PC to be there. How do I say this...You. Are. Wrong. The Underdark—for the most part—is the most terrifying and unsafe place for a Surface Character to stick their big fat nose. Yet, 99% of PCs that travel to the UD DO NOT Role-play this way. And that, my friendly Player-base, is the root of the problem.

Either Surfacers are allowed to come to the UD and live there, or they are not. Or is this to be understood in such a way that the laws of Sshamath allow Surfacers to live in Sshamath, but they would/should never be able to get there by any means that would grant them the right to live there, as per Sshamath law?

Example 1:
Surface CE level 30 Human Red Wizard Necromancer, wishing to increase his power, explores Durlag's Tower in the search of tomes of knowledge, finds entrance to the Underdark, realizes where he is and runs back home to mommy, knowing fully well that he would find everything he was looking for in the Underdark, but is too scared to press on.

Though he have a reason to go there and would be able to on his own, he would never be able to due to the fear of the Underdark that all surfacers should have.

Example 2:
Surface LE level 22 Human Rogue, seeking new shady business connections, happens upon three suspicious characters on the surface at nighttime and they engage in conversation, though the trio is not very fluent in Common*. The trio extends an offer to the Rogue for what he seeks, in exhance for services rendered and comming with them to their hideout. Intriqued, he follows along to a well-hidden place. The trio, one or more being Drow, reveal themselves to be members of Bregan D'Aerthe looking to setup a trade and information network on the surface**. Fearing for his life, the Rogue agree to their terms. After some time of favorable business dealings, the Rogue is offered a chance to come study the finer arts of his trade in Sshamath as an associate of Bregan D'Aerthe, an offer which he accepts, fearing the consequences of declining the offer.

*: Most Drow are capable of speaking Common, although rarely fluently.
**: This is a big part of what Bregan D'Aerthe as a whole does, at least in Menzoberranzan, where they provide exotic tradegoods, such as real wood, to those who can afford it.

Though he have a reason to go there, he cannot get there on his own and require help from citizens in Sshamath, thus no longer meeting the requirement by Sshamath law.



I'm certain others can think of many more examples where the RP is there, but due to either Sshamath law or the paralyzing fear of the Underdark that all Surfacers should have, there is really no way for them to ever get to Sshamath and be allowed to stay/live there for an extended period.

Thankfully the number of visiting surfacers is small, for the reasons the DM inferred.

There have been some awesome roleplay for both parties as a surfacer and drow meet in sshamath.

Generally however the epic, or near, surfacer has quite the issue with the fact that no matter how awesome the toon is, in sshamath it is likely treated like scum and expected to adhere to it.

I do completely get the whole fear of the UD argument. Especially in a city of thousands of drow, no one should be starting any crap with any citizen/resident and especially Drow citizens. But if you are a level 30 character, or level 15-18ish according to how we calculate it here on this server, I think you can still be somewhat calm and not crap your pants when traveling the UD.

I'm really trying to remember when Artemis went down into the UD the first time, but I do believe he wasn't crapping his pants and he was probably around lv 15 at the time walking the caverns in stealth with his trusty vampiric dagger and Charons claw badass sword. Matter of fact, the first time he met a small drow patrol he ended up gutting the priestess and all her guards pretty easily when the priestess dared to use her snake whip on him.

At level 15 you are a certifiable badass in Faerrun Lore. Sometimes I get the feeling like we are told to go to the extreme end of the argument and to consider our epic characters to be more like lv 3 or 4. There are two extremes, one saying, "oh! Look, there's only two level two characters in all the whole UD, I own this shiiiznat now muhahaha! Free for all!" and the other extreme being you must be shaking in your boots and leaving a yellow trail everywhere you go.

I believe it should be based on the psychology of your character, their relative strength level, and if the goal they are after outweighs the very real risk of plunging into an alien world. I know why DM’s probably stress the point of view of, “consider yourself a lil girl when down there” because some players are godmodding to the extreme when they think they can do whatever they want in a city of literally 1000’s powerful evil drow. But I think it’s a bit much when I regularly see campaign setting for the UD to be around lv 12-18. Hell didn’t weaksauce Cattabri make it down there and she probably wasn’t higher than 12th level and probably more like 9th. Another words man, level 15 is pretty powerful in D&D lore.

Artemis is actually a great example, he infact shat his pants very much so when he realized what the drow are exactly. he did not have charons claw at the time iirc. There he was, one of the most ruthless killers from the sutface and he was terrified by the drow.

Not to mention that the drow did not so nice things with our dear antihero Artemis during his stay in Menzoberranzan. Things he is still coming to terms with in the DR 1450's.
Dahlia (ok, there are some cool snowflakey elves too) and Artemis has some enlightening moments as to this in the Neverwinter series of novels.

Back then he didnt have charon's claw but he was already an infamous assassin.
In Menzoberranzan however he was nothing but a novel piece of flesh.


One thing to remember about this is that back then the underdark and the drow race was something to be dreaded, a cause for paladins to pale. Nowadays everyone is Hancock.

Thids wrote:Artemis is actually a great example, he infact (#2) his pants very much so when he realized what the drow are exactly. he did not have charons claw at the time iirc. There he was, one of the most ruthless killers from the sutface and he was terrified by the drow.

Ah good point, been almost a decade since i read those books. He didn't fear them until he actually learned their ways in the city and he was a captive (pretty much) of Bregan D'aerthe. And I didn’t so much get the sense that he feared them in the extreme sense; he was also not foolish enough to start trouble once in the city. What I got from him was more of a sense of, "wow, these guys are freaking ruthless! I thought I was ruthless but these guys make my cold calculating ways seem like they were warm and fuzzy the whole time." I got more of a sense of him comparing his ruthlessness to theirs and he was obviously outmatched in that area.

Sure if you are a captive you should have some real fear, though you do notice Jaraxle was quite taken with Artemis's skill and personality and he wasn't treated as a lowly slave. I'm sure one of the other houses would have treated him worst perhaps. But there was another drow (very muscular and hulking) with human blood and he was regularly mated to the drow females in his house because of his prowess.

Ssamath is a bit different than the typical Drow city in that they certainly prize many creatures who can bring business to the city or who know arcane magics. This doesn't mean you cant be flayed and tortured, but I bet there's more to fear for an wanted criminal walking into a temple full of powerful servants or even into teh street of Luskan than dealing with the drow in this particular city if they can show value and connections.

Artemis wasn't frighten of the underdark per say as much as he was frighten of the drow (once in "captivity") and their seemingly heartless CE-CN culture. It's a dangerous place for sure and perhaps i was reading too much into the whole peeing your pants comments posted above and should just see it as being very cautious. If someone was that paralyzed with fright, they wouldn't even go down there. But if a character feels they have something to offer and that would protect them a bit more than just some random surfacer running down there, I think they should be able to play it cool until something terrible happens to make them think different like what happened to Artemis.

PS: And still Cattabri made it down there (by herself if I remember right?) as a blipping noob.

Ellery: "We will not be caught by surprise."
Entreri: "Almost everyone I've killed uttered similar last words."
Jarlaxle: "Then I am glad once again that you are on my side."
Entreri: "They've often said that too."

edit: Thanks to Storm for pointing out Artemis was a sex toy passed around the various priestesses. Can't believe I couldn't remember that part. Such torture! Having to please hot female drow!

ohboy007 wrote:edit: Thanks to Storm for pointing out Artemis was a sex toy passed around the various priestesses. Can't believe I couldn't remember that part. Such torture! Having to please hot female drow!

Considering how males are often mistreated by the females during sex, I'd say it could be a rather horrifying experience. Unless of course it's one of those cases where the male truly have something to offer and the female allow him to dominate her instead, to keep him loyal.

But that's a bit off-topic.

Can anyone, someone with sufficient knowledge on the topic (DM, veteran player, etc), preferably using the two examples I provided, confirm or deny, whether or not such scenarios are: a) server legal; and b) Sshamath legal?

mireigi wrote:

Aelcar wrote:Races capable of wizardry who reach Sshamath of their own accord as free-willed beings have the right to remain within the city for as long as they obey its laws and conduct ongoing business with residents. Actual citizenship is never granted to nondrow, though permanent residency is allowed so long as business is conducted as mentioned above.

The above seems to contradict a lot with what Novus wrote in another topic:
Subject: UD/Surface

DM Novus wrote:The same essentially applies to Surfacers that go into the Underdark. The DM Team has witnessed COUNTLESS acts of misbehavior and realistic/immersion breaking behavior, and each time it happens and when we have the option to address it as DMs, we do. Many Surface PCs seem to think that just because their powers allow them to travel to the Underdark, and that the Underdark is low on Player Character population, that somehow it is appropriate and safe for the PC to be there. How do I say this...You. Are. Wrong. The Underdark—for the most part—is the most terrifying and unsafe place for a Surface Character to stick their big fat nose. Yet, 99% of PCs that travel to the UD DO NOT Role-play this way. And that, my friendly Player-base, is the root of the problem.

Either Surfacers are allowed to come to the UD and live there, or they are not. Or is this to be understood in such a way that the laws of Sshamath allow Surfacers to live in Sshamath, but they would/should never be able to get there by any means that would grant them the right to live there, as per Sshamath law?

It's not in contradiction at all.

Surfacers can come to the UD. It's more or less like entering the cave where a Grizzly Bear lives. You dont know when or why it will kill you, but it's definitely a possibility. The analogy would hold, if the Grizzly were a genial, cunning and magical being, hundreds of years of evil on two legs...now, make a whole city full of them. You might ask yourself: why the hell anyone sane would go down there? And that's the answer: nobody WANTS to. Some DARE to, because it promises riches and power...but nobody would ever dare deny the risk (almost a certainty, really) of death.

Now, as for LIVE there, two options exist: RESIDENCE and CITIZENSHIP. The latter is never granted to non drow, as I quoted above. You can LIVE in Sshamath, in a ghetto with the other humans/imaskari/whatnot, but the place is "kept small" by the Conclave. And nobody cares HOW.

I hope it's clearer .