Why does the True Believer feat exist?

[unexplored]

I join the chorus that sings the line that .."everything is alright the way it is".

The problem is, without a feat like this some players would have just looked at the available PRC's and thought "that looks nice", ticked a few boxes and gone running around the server with their sparkling toons.

+1


I gladly made that sacrifice of a feat to be able to play that prc. It made it even feel more special from my perspective. Highly subjective though, I know.

No chance that playing a cleric or paladin or whoever is supposed to be a true believer without that feat will give me, again.. just me, the feeling that this sacrifice of a feat did.

I don't know about all the features of those prcs that requires it but I feel that mine pays back that loss greatly.


Judging from this I cannot see why this is useless, a too great loss nor does it really require to be of at least little use other than it is already.

Something like a will +2 is yet another advantage for already powerful prcs.

.....


After unloading all these thoughts it seems to be much of a matter of taste. Some like it, some do not. I can see a balancing purpose behind it.. I can see a purpose that these prcs require it..

As much as the lore is ignored already (( nowadays?? )) I really appreciate some difficulties on the way to build a toon. Infact I would vote for far more applications for races and and builds. But this is just me and I am far from being perfect.

[DM Pun Pun]

Never understood app only classes either.

App classes are more for balancing "RP power" than mechanical power, otherwise Bloodmage would be an app only class. App classes require a certain amount of knowledge and caretaking of that knowledge because of its impact on the lore.


As for Shadow Adept, there is so much more that goes into taking this class in PnP than what we can perform on the mechanical side of this game. So, the app is one way we can enforce these effects that we can't otherwise implement in the game.

Everyone should be expected to RP the classes they take, not just Red Wizards or Shadow Adepts.

That is utopian ideology, but we all know this does not happen in most cases. While I do believe more players today do attempt to build for RP and story than they did in the past, 99 out of 100 players will always take the optimal path in building their character in spite of RP because they do not want to be perceived as weak by their peers. Its an OOC stigma that is prevalent in any MMO, and we are no exception.

[matelener]

Never understood app only classes either.

Everyone should be expected to RP the classes they take, not just Red Wizards or Shadow Adepts. You could make the most amazing Red Wizard app ever then be totally clueless in game. Add an example of how to RP the class in character creation if you have to. Would save you a ton of work in the end anyways(you might even save the Red Wizard Guild in the process).

If the app is because of balance concerns then the class should just be nerfed and opened up to all. App'ing for power is way too open to interpretation, ooc politics and personal bias. I remember awhile back on dalelands a friend of mine applied for a Forest Master and got rejected because his deity was Malar. I swear not a month later we ran into a Forest Master of Malar in game who applied for the class a week after my friend. Guess which player was an ex-DM and which wasn't :p

+1

If the application only policy was consequential then more lore heavy classes should be included such as clerics, druids, paladins, favoured souls and anything else I missed. Which would lead to a severely limited server and accusations of favoritism.

Right now, the restricted PRCs are few and don't seem to be that desirable, so nobody really cares. But in principle, a Red Wizard PC knowing nothing about Thay isn't more harmful than a paladin PC ignorant of Code of Conduct.

[Cel'Daren]

You know, I honestly did not think that this would become such a heated topic. I looked at Shadow Adept, saw True Believer, looked at what that was, and went "Why would I want a feat that does nothing for me?" and then came straight here.

To be honest I don't care what people think of the feat in terms of Roleplay value. I personally don't find much RP value in my build except maybe a vague guide. Roleplay comes from Roleplay first, build second. True Believer does nothing for my Roleplay. I can RP a true believer with or without a little feat on my character sheet. If you like having the feat as it is, then good for you. Why would you care if the feat got stronger?

I simply want the feat to do something useful beyond what it does now, which is nothing on its own.

[grymhild]

You know, I honestly did not think that this would become such a heated topic. I looked at Shadow Adept, saw True Believer, looked at what that was, and went "Why would I want a feat that does nothing for me?" and then came straight here.

To be honest I don't care what people think of the feat in terms of Roleplay value. I personally don't find much RP value in my build except maybe a vague guide. Roleplay comes from Roleplay first, build second. True Believer does nothing for my Roleplay. I can RP a true believer with or without a little feat on my character sheet. If you like having the feat as it is, then good for you. Why would you care if the feat got stronger?

I simply want the feat to do something useful beyond what it does now, which is nothing on its own.

our implementation of the Shadow Adept PrC requires the True Believer feat, which isn't a prerequisite for the class in pnp.

however... in pnp, Shadow Adept does require the character to have the Shadow Weave Magic feat, which isn't available as a choice for PCs , but is given for "free" at first level of Shadow Adept on our server (note: eligibility for the Shadow Adept PrC on our server also requires the Shadow Adept Qualification feat which is awarded by a DM after approval of the Shadow Adept application process)

so, at least in the case of Shadow Adept, there is no "feat tax" for taking the class.

maybe I can try to explain this better... :/

if this were pnp...the Shadow Adept class does not grant the Shadow Weave Magic feat —but does have it as a requirement— so a PC would have to take the Shadow Weave Magic feat in order to qualify for Shadow Adept PrC

since we as a server have decided that Shadow Weave Magic is rare, and virtually* unknown outside of the Church of Shar, the Shadow Weave Magic feat isn't normally available outside of the Shadow Adept PrC

on our server, which is different than pnp, a PC is required to take True Believer as a prerequisite (along with following the application process), but then gains Shadow Weave Magic feat for "free" as a first level Shadow Adept.

meaning... in pursuit of Shadow Adept a PC isn't "wasting" a feat by being required to take True Believer, instead that PC is in effect actually gaining True Believer as virtual free feat even if True Believer has no mechanical advantage) (edit) —meaning that the pc has one more feat than a Shadow Adept of the same level from pnp

(more info but maybe confusing)

Hidden: show

I suppose that we could have designed Shadow Adept to require a Shadow Weave Magic Application feat (which would still do nothing) instead of True Believer, but still have the same effect.

the alternative would be to change the class and take Shadow Weave Magic away as free feat from Shadow Adept and change The True Believer requirement to Shadow Weave Magic. but then it would still require a pc to be granted an application only Shadow Weave Magic Qualification feat by a DM before that PC would be able to select the feat - which has other disadvantages, like not being able to gain the feat requirements below approval.

uggghh... I'm sorry if that was confusing, I have a migraine and I'm writing this on my phone.


(off topic: I have other ideas of how Shadow Weave Magic feat works in order to bring it our server closer to pnp)

[mrm3ntalist]

You know, I honestly did not think that this would become such a heated topic. I looked at Shadow Adept, saw True Believer, looked at what that was, and went "Why would I want a feat that does nothing for me?" and then came straight here.

To be honest I don't care what people think of the feat in terms of Roleplay value. I personally don't find much RP value in my build except maybe a vague guide. Roleplay comes from Roleplay first, build second. True Believer does nothing for my Roleplay. I can RP a true believer with or without a little feat on my character sheet. If you like having the feat as it is, then good for you. Why would you care if the feat got stronger?

I simply want the feat to do something useful beyond what it does now, which is nothing on its own.

our implementation of the Shadow Adept PrC requires the True Believer feat, which isn't a prerequisite for the class in pnp.

however... in pnp, Shadow Adept does require the character to have the Shadow Weave Magic feat, which isn't available as a choice for PCs , but is given for "free" at first level of Shadow Adept on our server (note: eligibility for the Shadow Adept PrC on our server also requires the Shadow Adept Qualification feat which is awarded by a DM after approval of the Shadow Adept application process)

so, at least in the case of Shadow Adept, there is no "feat tax" for taking the class.

maybe I can try to explain this better... :/

if this were pnp...the Shadow Adept class does not grant the Shadow Weave Magic feat —but does have it as a requirement— so a PC would have to take the Shadow Weave Magic feat in order to qualify for Shadow Adept PrC

since we as a server have decided that Shadow Weave Magic is rare, and virtually* unknown outside of the Church of Shar, the Shadow Weave Magic feat isn't normally available outside of the Shadow Adept PrC

on our server, which is different than pnp, a PC is required to take True Believer as a prerequisite (along with following the application process), but then gains Shadow Weave Magic feat for "free" as a first level Shadow Adept.

meaning... in pursuit of Shadow Adept a PC isn't "wasting" a feat by being required to take True Believer, instead that PC is in effect actually gaining True Believer as virtual free feat even if True Believer has no mechanical advantage) (edit) —meaning that the pc has one more feat than a Shadow Adept of the same level from pnp

(more info but maybe confusing)

Hidden: show

I suppose that we could have designed Shadow Adept to require a Shadow Weave Magic Application feat (which would still do nothing) instead of True Believer, but still have the same effect.

the alternative would be to change the class and take Shadow Weave Magic away as free feat from Shadow Adept and change The True Believer requirement to Shadow Weave Magic. but then it would still require a pc to be granted an application only Shadow Weave Magic Qualification feat by a DM before that PC would be able to select the feat - which has other disadvantages, like not being able to gain the feat requirements below approval.

uggghh... I'm sorry if that was confusing, I have a migraine and I'm writing this on my phone.


(off topic: I have other ideas of how Shadow Weave Magic feat works in order to bring it our server closer to pnp)

Are you suggesting that instead of True Believer, Shadow Adept should have as a prereq a Shadow Weave Magic feat ?

[grymhild]

Are you suggesting that instead of True Believer, Shadow Adept should have as a prereq a Shadow Weave Magic feat ?

yes.

but only if and only if the Shadow Weave Magic couldn't be taken by a PC without DM approval,

Hidden: show

meaning that the Shadow Weave Magic feat would have a requirement : a Shadow Weave Magic Qualification feat.

this qualification feat would not be player selectable and would need to be granted by a DM after Shadow Weave Magic application approval

the thing is, in effect this is pretty much what happens now.

and while this change might be closer to pnp, it would have almost the same net mechanical effect on PCs that we have now, the only difference really being that the way things are, a player can choose True Believer without DM support while they are still waiting for Shadow Adept application approval)

[grunts]

Never understood app only classes either.

App classes are more for balancing "RP power" than mechanical power, otherwise Bloodmage would be an app only class. App classes require a certain amount of knowledge and caretaking of that knowledge because of its impact on the lore.


As for Shadow Adept, there is so much more that goes into taking this class in PnP than what we can perform on the mechanical side of this game. So, the app is one way we can enforce these effects that we can't otherwise implement in the game.

Everyone should be expected to RP the classes they take, not just Red Wizards or Shadow Adepts.

That is utopian ideology, but we all know this does not happen in most cases. While I do believe more players today do attempt to build for RP and story than they did in the past, 99 out of 100 players will always take the optimal path in building their character in spite of RP because they do not want to be perceived as weak by their peers. Its an OOC stigma that is prevalent in any MMO, and we are no exception.

I get what you're saying, it's just that every class & race has an impact on lore and can be very immersion breaking if done poorly. There is no reason Red Wizard should be app only and not Stormlord/Silverstar/Morninglord/Harper Agent or even Paladin/Druid/Favored Soul, all of which have heavy RP and lore implications.

Ever run into a Paladin of the Torm knowingly traveling with a Banite on a regular basis? I have and that is just as damaging to lore as a clueless Red Wizard. Even making a Good Drow/Grey Orc or Evil Aasimar should be app only if we are talking about caretaking lore.

Or instead we could simply expect everyone to RP the classes/races they take and DM's can hand out alignment adjustments or even suggestions/warnings as appropriate. And just because most take the optimal path does NOT mean we should get a free pass to ignore the RP attached to that path. Random shadowdancer levels? Better have an explanation. 7 Dragonslayer in your wizard build? You better have dragon killing urges! Etc. You don't have to RP a full blown shadowdancer just because you're Wizard 27/shadowdancer 3 but you can't pretend those 3 levels don't exist either

[NeOmega]

Except that it is literally punishing anyone who wants to play those things.

.

....and then rewards them with access to a PRC. Don't tell me you've never taken a useless feat to your build concept just to get a PRC.

[Theodore01]

Except that it is literally punishing anyone who wants to play those things.
.

....and then rewards them with access to a PRC. Don't tell me you've never taken a useless feat to your build concept just to get a PRC.

....but, but not so utterly useless.

[NeOmega]

Except that it is literally punishing anyone who wants to play those things.
.

....and then rewards them with access to a PRC. Don't tell me you've never taken a useless feat to your build concept just to get a PRC.

....but, but not so utterly useless.

Alertness is pretty useless if you are not making a spotter build. Iron will is pretty useless if you are building a cleric or another class with high will saves.

Whirlwind attack? For Weapon master!? ha ha! I think True Believer might be MORE useful. At least when you use true believer you dont lose attacks per round!
Xa XA XA

[MopKnight]

That is utopian ideology, but we all know this does not happen in most cases. While I do believe more players today do attempt to build for RP and story than they did in the past, 99 out of 100 players will always take the optimal path in building their character in spite of RP because they do not want to be perceived as weak by their peers. Its an OOC stigma that is prevalent in any MMO, and we are no exception.

99 out of 100 players do this because there is no perceived or real benefit to doing otherwise.

Make that benefit apparent and you will find a lot of people taking feats that allow them to do things with DMs. I am a very rigid stat RPer - I play my characters charisma and intelligence to the letter in particular, as well as their range of interests. As an example, I considered RCRing Reine to take "Leadership" as well as True Believer purely to justify the advance of her particular type of roleplay. However, if neither are taken seriously by the DMs in roleplay, it seems pointless to do so.

Then again I am in the minority on these kind of gaming issues. I am in favour of extensive build restriction and the nerfing of significant numbers of classes.

[thids]

MopKnight what you just described is one of the reasons I don't like feats like those two :\ Roleplay should be the measure of how good of a leader a character is or how much of a believer they are, not a feat on their character sheet. While in your case both of those feats may be justified and reflect your roleplay accordingly, what happens when you have a player with those feats in a DM event who doesn't reflect that roleplay properly, or even worse the player's roleplay reflects those feats properly but there are other players in the event which roleplay those things with more intensity but don't have the feats? Should the DM be like "No, cut down on your zealous belief in your character's deity, we have a certified True Believer here." or "Stop trying to take charge, we have someone with the Leadership feat."? There is a reason why Considerate has never heard of anyone having issues because of True Believer feat, it's because the DM's don't pay attention to it much. And they shouldn't. Players shouldn't be rewarded for the feats they pick, they should be rewarded for their roleplay.


How far will we go then if we take both of those feats seriously in RP? Are we soon going to have feats which tell us how articulate our characters are? How many grammar mistakes our characters have to make per sentence because they don't have a feat for flawless grammar?

We need to keep in mind that the server's ruleset is built with the "the chain is as strong as the weakest link" philosophy.

[Considerate_]

Personally I think that it goes both way. This isn't a one way street.

If I have a character with a low charisma, I should RP it.
But if I want a suave and well liked character, I should invest in charisma.


If I want to have a character that's really a True Believer, and nigh unshakable in their faith, then I pick the feat True Believer. That doesn't mean a paladin or cleric without the feat, is somehow less powerful or worthy of their class. Both paladins and clerics do have doubts and can fall from grace, - I'd even go as far as to say that it's only a very select fanatical few that are almost impossible to shake that are almost unheard of.

Our charactersheet helps define our character. But we, the player, define our charactersheet. So pick the feats and abilities you want, and that make sense to you and your concept.

If someone wants to pick True Believer, then that's their business. If someone would rather pick Luck of Heroes, then that's their business too.

I won't deny that I would love if feats like Leadership and True Believer made an impact on the roleplaying aspect of the game - and mayby they do or will. But for my part, I picked True Believer because it made sense for my character, and more importantly, because it made me feel happy about it.


I don't have any PRC's that requires it, it was picked after a DM plot where it made sense... But I don't mean to polish my halo here. I got at least one build that's so blatantly a powerbuild I can't hide it even if I tried. Some times I enjoy playing one, other times another.

At the end of the day that's what's important to me, that I enjoy it, and that's why I play - I think there should be room for both playstyles

[Lag]

That's exactly the thing. People are responding like those who hate the idea of this feat are part of this sub class of undesirables. That's unfortunate and doesn't seem to be a thought easily swayed. I don't really know where that comes from and I'm not going to try to understand it.

If a player wants to take a feat for the role play benefit, fine. That's your prerogative. I support that idea and think people building for character should be rewarded.

I hate this feat. If it was absolutely require for me to take it on a character concept, I'd likely rethink exactly how tied to that character I am.

I want this feat to have a useful meaning for the people it does appeal to. If you're going to put something out there that is supposed to represent a real and tangible connection to one's divine patron, at least drop these people some one on one commune time with their gods. Barring that, make it so something fun like cast something or change the way other clergy npcs react to the character.

I hate that this seemingly devolved into an argument about powerbuilding and find that rather unfortunate.